Is Chamaedorea pochutlensis a potential "cold hardy" palm?

[idontknowhatnametuse]

This is by far my favorite Chamaedorea sp. because it's a Chamaedorea costaricana mimic. I have 3 seedlings and noticed that along with Chamaedorea microspadix they grow during and seem to like fresh (11⁰C - 17⁰C) days. Due to its rarity, there's not a lot of information about its cold hardiness. This palm extends its range into the mountains of the Mexican state of Durango, which have a slightly cooler climate than the Chamaedorea microspadix and radicalis habitat. There's some very big old clumps in the Huntington Botanical Gardens in California that for sure survived the 2007 freeze. Does anyone else grow this species? I'm motivated to plant two in the ground when the base starts getting thicker.

[Swolte]

Interesting, do we have some information on the damage that was done during that freeze? Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it went down to 18F then? The master cold file administered by @kinzyjr  only has one entry for this species for a specimen in Florida that survived  29F with "No Damage".

I assume this plant came back from the ground then from 18F? But if leaves only had minor damage with those temps you may be on to something. If not, factors like growth speed (how fast do they bounce back) may determine viability in regions with more reliable and frequent colds. I mean, if it can't even handle back to back temps in the mid 20s EVERY winter (and it looks like crap for three seasons), its a nono for me and, I assume, many other here.

I don't know anyone growing this in my area. I have Microspadix and Radicalis and I'd say the latter is quite reliable here.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

9 minutes ago, Swolte said:

Interesting, do we have some information on the damage that was done during that freeze? Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it went down to 18F then? The master cold file administered by @kinzyjr  only has one entry for this species for a specimen in Florida that survived  29F with "No Damage".

I assume this plant came back from the ground then from 18F? But if leaves only had minor damage with those temps you may be on to something. If not, factors like growth speed (how fast do they bounce back) may determine viability in regions with more reliable and frequent colds. I mean, if it can't even handle back to back temps in the mid 20s EVERY winter (and it looks like crap for three seasons), its a nono for me and, I assume, many other here.

I don't know anyone growing this in my area. I have Microspadix and Radicalis and I'd say the latter is quite reliable here.

No info on the california freeze yet but if they are alive and have been there for decades, that means they survived and came back strong.

[Xenon]

I don't think you're going to have any problems with the vast majority of Chamaedorea in Monterrey. If in some freak once in a few decades freeze kills the arborescent trunks, the buds near the ground will almost certainly be alive. 

 

[gyuseppe]

This species can withstand temperatures of -4 degrees Celsius, and is very similar to the Costaricana, they can even hybridize with each other

[idontknowhatnametuse]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

I don't think you're going to have any problems with the vast majority of Chamaedorea in Monterrey. If in some freak once in a few decades freeze kills the arborescent trunks, the buds near the ground will almost certainly be alive. 

 

Makes sense, if Chamaedorea seifrizii that grows in a more tropical latitude can grow here just fine, Chamaedorea pochutlensis should do even better. There's a huge clump of C. seifrizii var. 'Florida' in a building near the Rio Santa Catarina that survived 2021 (Even the arborescent stems). It looked like C. costaricana from a distance because the clump looked very robust. But I found out it was C. seifrizii because it had erect flower bracts.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

23 minutes ago, gyuseppe said:

This species can withstand temperatures of -4 degrees Celsius, and is very similar to the Costaricana, they can even hybridize with each other

Is -4⁰C a temperature that could only damage C. pochutlensis or is it a temperature that could kill it?

[gyuseppe]

no, only very damage of chamaedorea  pochutlensis  and costaricana 

[idontknowhatnametuse]

8 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

no, only very damage of chamaedorea  pochutlensis  and costaricana 

Pretty sure costaricana is more tender.

[Silas_Sancona]

On 1/16/2025 at 7:08 AM, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Pretty sure costaricana is more tender.

Though C. costaricana is pretty durable, Agree.. One look at their native distribution via observations on iNat will tell you which of the two may handle more extremes  -heat  and/or  cold..

C. costaricana = N.W. Chiapas - roughly N. Panama.   Generally speaking,   ..More rain  / might get hot at times down there  ..but overall, less extreme temp. fluctuation year / year

C. Pochutlensis = Grows a lot further north / grows in areas where climatic conditions can fluctuate a lot more, esp populations that occur anywhere north of Puerto Vallarta.. = Likely more adaptable / accepting of a wider deg. of growing conditions..


Tbh, i wouldn't be surprised to hear of isolated populations of C. p. being uncovered further north in the Sierra Occidental  ...than it has been observed currently.. IE:  In ideal locales situated between Yecora, Sonora,  and the foothills east of Los Mochis,  in Sinaloa.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

6 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Though C. costaricana is pretty durable, Agree.. One look at their native distribution via observations on iNat will tell you which of the two may handle more extremes  -heat  and/or  cold..

C. costaricana = N.W. Chiapas - roughly N. Panama.   Generally speaking,   ..More rain  / might get hot at times down there  ..but overall, less extreme temp. fluctuation year / year

C. Pochutlensis = Grows a lot further north / grows in areas where climatic conditions can fluctuate a lot more, esp populations that occur anywhere north of Puerto Vallarta.. = Likely more adaptable / accepting of a wider deg. of growing conditions..


Tbh, i wouldn't be surprised to hear of isolated populations of C. p. being uncovered further north in the Sierra Occidental  ...than it has been observed currently.. IE:  In ideal locales situated between Yecora, Sonora,  and the foothills east of Los Mochis,  in Sinaloa.

Wish C. pochutlensis was more common. It's rare because its fronds are cultivated and exported to the USA because the sap of C. pochutlensis fronds is an ingredient of the ink of US dollars since like 40 years ago, it's a crop in the state of Nayarit. Maybe that's the reason why it never became popular.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Wish C. pochutlensis was more common. It's rare because its fronds are cultivated and exported to the USA because the sap of C. pochutlensis fronds is an ingredient of the ink of US dollars since like 40 years ago, it's a crop in the state of Nayarit. Maybe that's the reason why it never became popular.

Was wondering something similar... I mean, if it has a touch more adaptability compared to C. costricana ..Maybe even tolerating more heat ..meaning it might even survive here  -if grown in high, bright, shifting all day shade-   ...yet has a look similar to the fairly durable ..in the right areas..  costricana,  why isn't it cultivated more..

As you mention, it is listed as vulnerable too ..so it really should be grown more..  ANY palm  ..or whatever..  that is considered vulnerable, and / or threatened  should be grown more compared to stuff that is already super common..

Rarity in cultivation could be due to it's relative obscurity,  or possibly tied to the reason you mentioned,  ..or,  like choosing to grow C. seifrizii rather than the much more durable microspadix  -on a commercial scale at least-  maybe it simply comes down to some odd, horticultural trend - related thing..

I'd definitely try it if it were available, esp since the northern populations grow in a region where some other plants that grow here w/ out much trouble originate. May not be palms, but one or a few of those things probably could be found shading specimens of that Chamaedorea on the same hillside.



Speaking of obscurity,  Not sure if you noticed but, when you click on the " Genus Chamadorea " section on iNat, the list of species is quite a bit longer than i'd  thought.. with numerous sps i don't recall being mentioned anywhere here on PT ...ever...

Barring any old, changed names that iNat might not have removed,  seems as though, while there are numerous species already in cultivation,  seems like that list is tiny compared to  all  of the possible species out there.

Didn't realize both Gaussia and Hyophorbe  ( ...and a couple other Genus i don't recall being discussed much -if at all- here ) are considered part of Tribe Chamaedoreeae as well.  ...At least as listed on iNat.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

13 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Was wondering something similar... I mean, if it has a touch more adaptability compared to C. costricana ..Maybe even tolerating more heat ..meaning it might even survive here  -if grown in high, bright, shifting all day shade-   ...yet has a look similar to the fairly durable ..in the right areas..  costricana,  why isn't it cultivated more..

As you mention, it is listed as vulnerable too ..so it really should be grown more..  ANY palm  ..or whatever..  that is considered vulnerable, and / or threatened  should be grown more compared to stuff that is already super common..

Rarity in cultivation could be due to it's relative obscurity,  or possibly tied to the reason you mentioned,  ..or,  like choosing to grow C. seifrizii rather than the much more durable microspadix  -on a commercial scale at least-  maybe it simply comes down to some odd, horticultural trend - related thing..

I'd definitely try it if it were available, esp since the northern populations grow in a region where some other plants that grow here w/ out much trouble originate. May not be palms, but one or a few of those things probably could be found shading specimens of that Chamaedorea on the same hillside.



Speaking of obscurity,  Not sure if you noticed but, when you click on the " Genus Chamadorea " section on iNat, the list of species is quite a bit longer than i'd  thought.. with numerous sps i don't recall being mentioned anywhere here on PT ...ever...

Barring any old, changed names that iNat might not have removed,  seems as though, while there are numerous species already in cultivation,  seems like that list is tiny compared to  all  of the possible species out there.

Didn't realize both Gaussia and Hyophorbe  ( ...and a couple other Genus i don't recall being discussed much -if at all- here ) are considered part of Tribe Chamaedoreeae as well.  ...At least as listed on iNat.

Yes, Gaussia is related to Chamaedorea. That's why some species flower/fruit like this.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

[Silas_Sancona]

18 minutes ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Yes, Gaussia is related to Chamaedorea. That's why some species flower/fruit like this.

 

16 minutes ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

  DNA / Visual characteristics that connect them don't lie, so..

For whatever reason, i'd casually assumed Gaussia  was lumped into the same Subfamily < Ceroxyloideae >  as Pseudophoenix  and Ravena 

..With Chamaedoreeae containing species ..and Genus.. that were smaller, mainly understory / growing beneath high overhead canopy - type Palms.


 

[PalmatierMeg]

I found Cham costaricana to be relatively short lived for me in our Backyard Jungle above the Isabelle Canal. I don't know if that's normal or unusual.

I tried Cham pochutlensis from seeds but never got very far with them. I suspect they prefer a less sweltering climate and cooler winters. Our 6-7 month ferocious summers are just too long and hot for them. Definitely more suited to a NoCal mediterranean climate.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

8 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I found Cham costaricana to be relatively short lived for me in our Backyard Jungle above the Isabelle Canal. I don't know if that's normal or unusual.

I tried Cham pochutlensis from seeds but never got very far with them. I suspect they prefer a less sweltering climate and cooler winters. Our 6-7 month ferocious summers are just too long and hot for them. Definitely more suited to a NoCal mediterranean climate.

Did your costaricana die due to nematodes? If C. pochutlensis prefers cool winters then it should do good in my climate. Our winter days (Without winter storms) are normally between 10-12⁰C and 21-24⁰C. But when it rains or is cloudy it's slightly cooler.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

8 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 

  DNA / Visual characteristics that connect them don't lie, so..

For whatever reason, i'd casually assumed Gaussia  was lumped into the same Subfamily < Ceroxyloideae >  as Pseudophoenix  and Ravena 

..With Chamaedoreeae containing species ..and Genus.. that were smaller, mainly understory / growing beneath high overhead canopy - type Palms.


 

It's confusing, because Gaussia unlike Chamaedoreas, has a "woody" trunk.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

It's confusing, because Gaussia unlike Chamaedoreas, has a "woody" trunk.

That's one thing that crossed my mind when i saw Gaussia was included,  though i can see how that genus could've evolved away from a soft / sheltered " Chamaedorea- like "  origin,  to being able to handle much harsher environmental conditions ...if that is how it happened...  

As far removed as it is geographically from all other Genus in Chamadoreeae,  Hyophorbe included the same group is really intriguing..

 

[gyuseppe]

here chamaedorea pochutlensis and chamaedorea  costaricana grow very well