Basselinia substrate - Optimal Mix for high altitude ones?

[guillerman]

Anyone out there has been able to increase Basselinia germination rates with an ultra specific substrate or trick?

I have had success but want to optimize as much as possible the germinal gain

[happypalms]

I have only germinated basselina gracilis in ph buffered coco coir perlite mix with great success bottom heating 30 degrees Celsius styrofoam box with lids using etoliation. Fresh seed is the key technique yes but fresh seed. 

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I don’t think that any technique can make up for old Seed. I have consistently had the experience that fresh seed germinate no matter what and Seed bought from other sources other than my own collection are hit and miss depending on how old the seeds are.  This is true not just for palm seeds, but just about any kind of seed. RPS is definitely hit and miss. Backyard collection on the other hand always leads to high germination rates. 
 

I have had great success germinating fresh seed of just about any palm species in our ambient conditions with natural rainfall in a variety of mixes. (60-78F) There are some palm seed that do need bottom heat though but if the seed is fresh cooler temperatures just slow germination down rather than preventing it. 

[guillerman]

Thanks for the tips 🙏, probably it has to do with seed age to some extent... Thanks for the extra degrees advice, and the etoliation method,  definitely something I will implement in further plantings. Here is my current recipe trying to replicate soil conditions from New Cal, if it helps anyone out there:

Pretreatment

• 25 celsius 24h soak in water 
• Water change
• 25 celsius 24h soak in water with gibberellic acid (GA3) 100-500 ppm (mg/L)

Substrate

• Worm humus 5%
• Shredded pine bark 10%
• Volcanic gravel 10%
• Sphagnum peat moss 37%
• Vermiculite 10%
• Silica sand 5%
• Coarse sand 20%
• Serpentine 2%

Extras (be very mindful, could mess up the whole thing):

• Cobalt sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Iron chelate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Magnesium sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Nickel sulfate 0.1 g per kg of substrate

Temperature:

• 26-27.3 celsius
• Nocturnal temperature fluctuation 4 celsius - 8-10h
• LUX: ~8800 -> 6hour day
• Humidity: >75%

Germination rates are low, but manage to get some B. moorei's going and B. glabrata for now after 3 months

[happypalms]

3 hours ago, guillerman said:

Thanks for the tips 🙏, probably it has to do with seed age to some extent... Thanks for the extra degrees advice, and the etoliation method,  definitely something I will implement in further plantings. Here is my current recipe trying to replicate soil conditions from New Cal, if it helps anyone out there:

Pretreatment

• 25 celsius 24h soak in water 
• Water change
• 25 celsius 24h soak in water with gibberellic acid (GA3) 100-500 ppm (mg/L)

Substrate

• Worm humus 5%
• Shredded pine bark 10%
• Volcanic gravel 10%
• Sphagnum peat moss 37%
• Vermiculite 10%
• Silica sand 5%
• Coarse sand 20%
• Serpentine 2%

Extras (be very mindful, could mess up the whole thing):

• Cobalt sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Iron chelate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Magnesium sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Nickel sulfate 0.1 g per kg of substrate

Temperature:

• 26-27.3 celsius
• Nocturnal temperature fluctuation 4 celsius - 8-10h
• LUX: ~8800 -> 6hour day
• Humidity: >75%

Germination rates are low, but manage to get some B. moorei's going and B. glabrata for now after 3 months

That’s a lot of extra work for sowing seeds. Giberelic acid is carcinogenic so be careful. But fresh seeds should germinate regardless of what you do or not do good luck.

[happypalms]

3 hours ago, guillerman said:

Thanks for the tips 🙏, probably it has to do with seed age to some extent... Thanks for the extra degrees advice, and the etoliation method,  definitely something I will implement in further plantings. Here is my current recipe trying to replicate soil conditions from New Cal, if it helps anyone out there:

Pretreatment

• 25 celsius 24h soak in water 
• Water change
• 25 celsius 24h soak in water with gibberellic acid (GA3) 100-500 ppm (mg/L)

Substrate

• Worm humus 5%
• Shredded pine bark 10%
• Volcanic gravel 10%
• Sphagnum peat moss 37%
• Vermiculite 10%
• Silica sand 5%
• Coarse sand 20%
• Serpentine 2%

Extras (be very mindful, could mess up the whole thing):

• Cobalt sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Iron chelate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Magnesium sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Nickel sulfate 0.1 g per kg of substrate

Temperature:

• 26-27.3 celsius
• Nocturnal temperature fluctuation 4 celsius - 8-10h
• LUX: ~8800 -> 6hour day
• Humidity: >75%

Germination rates are low, but manage to get some B. moorei's going and B. glabrata for now after 3 months

That’s a lot of extra work for sowing seeds. Giberelic acid is carcinogenic so be careful. But fresh seeds should germinate regardless of what you do or not do good luck. The kiss method is the best method around.

[guillerman]

Had to bring the triggers for this rare one timer forward; New Caledonia's soils are complex.

Nevertheless I will keep you updated on this one some months form now 🤞

[tim_brissy_13]

3 hours ago, happypalms said:

That’s a lot of extra work for sowing seeds. Giberelic acid is carcinogenic so be careful. But fresh seeds should germinate regardless of what you do or not do good luck. The kiss method is the best method around.

I tend to agree. From experience, substrate mix is about the least important variable for germination rate. I’ve trialled pure perlite, 50/50 perlite and coco coir, 50/50 perlite and generic premium potting mix and pure potting mix and surprisingly results are similar if seed is fresh and moisture level and temperature is controlled. 
 

With the above being said, the substrate mix to mimic New Cal soils is great info. In cultivation, some rare New Cal species like Cyphophoenix (Campecarpus) fulcita struggle to get past the 2-3 leaf stage and I suspect its soil/nutrient based. 

[happypalms]

5 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I tend to agree. From experience, substrate mix is about the least important variable for germination rate. I’ve trialled pure perlite, 50/50 perlite and coco coir, 50/50 perlite and generic premium potting mix and pure potting mix and surprisingly results are similar if seed is fresh and moisture level and temperature is controlled. 
 

With the above being said, the substrate mix to mimic New Cal soils is great info. In cultivation, some rare New Cal species like Cyphophoenix (Campecarpus) fulcita struggle to get past the 2-3 leaf stage and I suspect its soil/nutrient based. 

Yes the soil from new cal may certainly eye different. I have no experience with it at all. I only know I potted up a completely healthy basselina moorei, and it died real fast. Iam by far no expert on potting up but I have had some exsperience on the potting bench. So I will go with it wasn’t the growers fault. But I will say the coco coir perlite a grade potting mix was certainly not helpful I do believe it was the substrate mix. Next time iam going with just potting mix a bit like a cactus mix with perlite, not coco coir mix, it might work for a lot but iam confident it didn’t work for the moorei at leas5 that is my conclusion.

[David B]

I have germinated moorei and velutina from RPS. I germinate in baggies with 50/50 coir and perlite till the spike is developed and then pot on. The ones I potted on in a similar mix hated it with very poor root development. The ones I potted on in straight bark/peat/pumice mix were trouble free. Im wondering if it is due to the way coconut coir hydrates and holds water?

[happypalms]

3 minutes ago, David B said:

I have germinated moorei and velutina from RPS. I germinate in baggies with 50/50 coir and perlite till the spike is developed and then pot on. The ones I potted on in a similar mix hated it with very poor root development. The ones I potted on in straight bark/peat/pumice mix were trouble free. Im wondering if it is due to the way coconut coir hydrates and holds water?

Could be the don’t like coco coir, more of a mineral small aggregate base mix along with an organic peat bark mixture. I wonder if rock dust will be helpful if so i got 20 kgs of it. Soil is the key to any palm get it right and it’s a home run, get it wrong and it’s out with loaded bases. 

[Tyrone]

19 hours ago, guillerman said:

Thanks for the tips 🙏, probably it has to do with seed age to some extent... Thanks for the extra degrees advice, and the etoliation method,  definitely something I will implement in further plantings. Here is my current recipe trying to replicate soil conditions from New Cal, if it helps anyone out there:

Pretreatment

• 25 celsius 24h soak in water 
• Water change
• 25 celsius 24h soak in water with gibberellic acid (GA3) 100-500 ppm (mg/L)

Substrate

• Worm humus 5%
• Shredded pine bark 10%
• Volcanic gravel 10%
• Sphagnum peat moss 37%
• Vermiculite 10%
• Silica sand 5%
• Coarse sand 20%
• Serpentine 2%

Extras (be very mindful, could mess up the whole thing):

• Cobalt sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Iron chelate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Magnesium sulfate 0.5 g per kg of substrate
• Nickel sulfate 0.1 g per kg of substrate

Temperature:

• 26-27.3 celsius
• Nocturnal temperature fluctuation 4 celsius - 8-10h
• LUX: ~8800 -> 6hour day
• Humidity: >75%

Germination rates are low, but manage to get some B. moorei's going and B. glabrata for now after 3 months

Where do you get nickel sulfate from? New Caledonian soils are often rich in nickel, aluminium, and I think cobalt. (New Caledonia has the richest nickel deposits on Earth) Sometimes the aluminium levels are so high the soil is a dark pink colour. At least in the south where we ventured the soils are quite acidic and the tour vehicles that drive off road in the dirt tend to rust away quickly. The soils are often a dark brown small pea gravel style substrate. Basselinia pancheri tends to like those dark gravelly soils as well as Basselinia gracilis. 
That being said, the substrate doesn’t really aid germination. Once it has germinated and starts growing then the substrate can matter. I use a coir, perlite, gravelly sand mix for germination and it seems to work. 

[Tyrone]

My approach with B moorei germination was this. I had a look at what elevation these grow on Mt Panie and they grow almost to the summit at 1600m elevation. This is a really cool, moist and mild location that would be cloud forest, which adjusting for the latitude would be almost identical to the conditions on Mt Gower on Lord Howe Island. So in winter single digit C minimums, many days in the teens maximums and probably nothing over 23C in a heatwave, always high humidity. So I treated them like Leppidorrachis. No bottom heat, in full shade, in the breeziest coolest part of the shadehouse year round. For nearly two years nothing happened, but after 2.5 years I had 80% germination. Now I do have problems with too much summer heat, like I do with Leppidorrachis, and I lost a couple to the heat before I realised what was going on. So now on a hot day that is forecast over 30C I bring my B moorei and Leppidorrachis inside into the insulated house and both species are doing well. What I’m going to do with them going forward I don’t know though . I never thought my climate here which is normally cool (by West Australian standards) would be too hot for some species. 

[David B]

I have a similar experience of temperatures above 25C stopping high altitude seedling growth. Lepidorrhacus seed buttoned fine at 25C to 30C but then stopped for months. Transferring them to a deep shade unheated outside area they resumed growth and have pushed a leaf spike. For me Basselinia seem a bit more tolerant of 25-30C to the first leaf stage at least

Prestoea acuminata and Geonoma weberbaurei similarly initially buttoned but then did nothing at higher temps. 

Seedlings seem easier if planted early for me - At the 1-2 year from germination. Perhaps soil makes up for some deficiencies of our potting mixes. Perhaps something to do with the way water passes through the pot/ mix. 

[Jonathan]

3 hours ago, David B said:

Seedlings seem easier if planted early for me - At the 1-2 year from germination. Perhaps soil makes up for some deficiencies of our potting mixes. Perhaps something to do with the way water passes through the pot/ mix. 

I have no experience with Basselinia, but this is certainly true of Lepidorrachis...get them in the ground and they are much happier. I actually wonder if the missing link in the equation is mycorrhizal fungi? Abundant in a healthy organic garden soil, usually absent in potting soil.

Fungal associations can buffer pH and release locked nutrients - for a species evolved on ultramafic soils with both toxic and defficient mineral levels, this might be more important than elsewhere perhaps?

Adding a handful of garden humus to the potting mix might be useful...or not!

[happypalms]

5 hours ago, Tyrone said:

My approach with B moorei germination was this. I had a look at what elevation these grow on Mt Panie and they grow almost to the summit at 1600m elevation. This is a really cool, moist and mild location that would be cloud forest, which adjusting for the latitude would be almost identical to the conditions on Mt Gower on Lord Howe Island. So in winter single digit C minimums, many days in the teens maximums and probably nothing over 23C in a heatwave, always high humidity. So I treated them like Leppidorrachis. No bottom heat, in full shade, in the breeziest coolest part of the shadehouse year round. For nearly two years nothing happened, but after 2.5 years I had 80% germination. Now I do have problems with too much summer heat, like I do with Leppidorrachis, and I lost a couple to the heat before I realised what was going on. So now on a hot day that is forecast over 30C I bring my B moorei and Leppidorrachis inside into the insulated house and both species are doing well. What I’m going to do with them going forward I don’t know though . I never thought my climate here which is normally cool (by West Australian standards) would be too hot for some species. 

☝️I’ll take a few in the future. 

[tim_brissy_13]

6 hours ago, Tyrone said:

My approach with B moorei germination was this. I had a look at what elevation these grow on Mt Panie and they grow almost to the summit at 1600m elevation. This is a really cool, moist and mild location that would be cloud forest, which adjusting for the latitude would be almost identical to the conditions on Mt Gower on Lord Howe Island. So in winter single digit C minimums, many days in the teens maximums and probably nothing over 23C in a heatwave, always high humidity. So I treated them like Leppidorrachis. No bottom heat, in full shade, in the breeziest coolest part of the shadehouse year round. For nearly two years nothing happened, but after 2.5 years I had 80% germination. Now I do have problems with too much summer heat, like I do with Leppidorrachis, and I lost a couple to the heat before I realised what was going on. So now on a hot day that is forecast over 30C I bring my B moorei and Leppidorrachis inside into the insulated house and both species are doing well. What I’m going to do with them going forward I don’t know though . I never thought my climate here which is normally cool (by West Australian standards) would be too hot for some species. 

Yeah Tyrone if you don’t know what to do with them I can certainly help you out 😆. What was your source for the B moorei? I’ve been told that moorei in Aus in cultivation are actually pseudovelutina. Although RPS may have true moorei. 

[Tyrone]

8 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Yeah Tyrone if you don’t know what to do with them I can certainly help you out 😆. What was your source for the B moorei? I’ve been told that moorei in Aus in cultivation are actually pseudovelutina. Although RPS may have true moorei. 

The source was habitat in NC. 

[guillerman]

On 2/4/2025 at 3:51 PM, Tyrone said:

Where do you get nickel sulfate from? New Caledonian soils are often rich in nickel, aluminium, and I think cobalt. (New Caledonia has the richest nickel deposits on Earth) Sometimes the aluminium levels are so high the soil is a dark pink colour. At least in the south where we ventured the soils are quite acidic and the tour vehicles that drive off road in the dirt tend to rust away quickly. The soils are often a dark brown small pea gravel style substrate. Basselinia pancheri tends to like those dark gravelly soils as well as Basselinia gracilis. 
That being said, the substrate doesn’t really aid germination. Once it has germinated and starts growing then the substrate can matter. I use a coir, perlite, gravelly sand mix for germination and it seems to work. 

https://www.alquera.com/sulfato-de-niquel/--> here in Europe, I believe they use it a bunch on the creation of tints 

[guillerman]

20 hours ago, Tyrone said:

My approach with B moorei germination was this. I had a look at what elevation these grow on Mt Panie and they grow almost to the summit at 1600m elevation. This is a really cool, moist and mild location that would be cloud forest, which adjusting for the latitude would be almost identical to the conditions on Mt Gower on Lord Howe Island. So in winter single digit C minimums, many days in the teens maximums and probably nothing over 23C in a heatwave, always high humidity. So I treated them like Leppidorrachis. No bottom heat, in full shade, in the breeziest coolest part of the shadehouse year round. For nearly two years nothing happened, but after 2.5 years I had 80% germination. Now I do have problems with too much summer heat, like I do with Leppidorrachis, and I lost a couple to the heat before I realised what was going on. So now on a hot day that is forecast over 30C I bring my B moorei and Leppidorrachis inside into the insulated house and both species are doing well. What I’m going to do with them going forward I don’t know though . I never thought my climate here which is normally cool (by West Australian standards) would be too hot for some species. 

This is great intel, and worth the wait, insane that it took 2.5 years. Thanks for bringing this method forward 🙏

[guillerman]

16 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I have no experience with Basselinia, but this is certainly true of Lepidorrachis...get them in the ground and they are much happier. I actually wonder if the missing link in the equation is mycorrhizal fungi? Abundant in a healthy organic garden soil, usually absent in potting soil.

Fungal associations can buffer pH and release locked nutrients - for a species evolved on ultramafic soils with both toxic and defficient mineral levels, this might be more important than elsewhere perhaps?

Adding a handful of garden humus to the potting mix might be useful...or not!

Been doing a little bit of brainstorm session on this one on GPT. There is definitely something there on AMF, totally agree, for me now its another level 😅