New Landscapers Ruining Rare Palms ​🌴​ ​​​​​​​​😢​

[iDesign]

I live in a relatively boring neighborhood, but there's one house I have always admired. Turns out it was landscaped with the help of our very own @BS Man about Palms many years ago.  And it's such a cool yard! Whenever I walk past it, I make sure to linger and study the palms (there are more cool ones in the back, as well as a huge Bismarckia not shown in this Google Capture).

BEFORE:

Well, something's happening at this address (likely being sold or rented), and the landscaping has been absolutely butchered.

EXHIBIT A:

What the heck?!!!! I truly hope that beautiful Hookeri Flamethrower will survive this attack, although I'm not sure what the chances are that it will. If it does live, I'll make sure to post a photo of its sad single "flame" poking up (it has sent up some amazing "flames" over the years). Such a terrible thing to do to that beautiful palm.
 

The Howea belmoreana took a beating too, but hopefully that one will pull through.  There are some other palms I seem to recall being in this area and will compare with Google Photos next time I'm down there to see what they removed. I was just so shocked by the flamethrower I forgot to check on the others.

EXHIBIT B:

'

I was soooooo happy to see they didn't attack the Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) decipiens!!! Now that would have made me even more angry, as I lovingly admire that palm each time I pass (imaging what mine will look like someday).

They did however cut down all but the very smallest of the Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) lutescens, which I shouldn't care about I suppose, but they actually looked pretty good in that sheltered location (no fried fronds) and the older stalks were quite attractive and above the roofline.

It looks like they removed several other palms from this area as well... I'll have to go back and see what else was removed - was just glad to see the decipiens was okay!!!

EXHIBIT 😄

I was tempted to post a negative review, but I"m not stupid enough to hire them (and for all I know they gave the new owners exactly what they asked for). I did go to their website though, and saw many examples of their work, which all looked like the following...

:: JUST KILL EVERYTHING ::

Which I suppose makes sense if you literally have a yard full of weeds and garbage... but a terrible idea to unleash this type of company on a home with many mature & rare plants. I also fear that they may have used roundup or something equally terrible in the yard.

Send thoughts and prayers. 💔 🙏

 

[Harry’s Palms]

Oh no!!😳 how horrible. I would have a hard time seeing that. It looked beautiful before the palm butchers had their way . I would be very upset even though it is none of my business. Palms are living things and a collection like that is to be admired , not destroyed. I hope the Chamberoynia survives the attack, it took me 25 years to grow mine from a seedling . What they did to it is criminal. On the side of my house a few of my palms overhang the fence but up high. When the house next door sold , I went to the new owners and introduced myself . I told them I would trim anything that got in their way. Nice couple from Washington state . They said “ don’t touch a thing ! The palms you have is one of the things that made us choose the house!” Harry

[TropicsEnjoyer]

Seeing “maintenance” like this is so infuriating. I don’t know how someone with a brain would think it’s right to trim a palm down to the spear. “Hmm, I think a pole looks just right here, I’m gonna ignore the examples of literally every other healthy palm tree around.” 
 

But seething doesn’t do much. We can only accept that beauty doesn’t last forever in a world of ignorance.

[NC_Palms]

Yeah this is really depressing 

[peachy]

When my house sold, the garden was one of the main attractions. The new people promptly cut down every palm that looked different to what you find everywhere. I have also seen lifelong collections of pottery, art, tchotchkes etc, all rare and gorgeous, thrown into a garbage skip when the owner died or went into a home. Sadly the type of people attracted to this kind of work are what were classed as Peasants in the old days. I they cant eat it, see an obvious use for it or shag it, then it is obviously worthless. Taste, style and a tad of class are rare in this world and blessed are they who have them.

Peachy

[Kim]

It can be very painful what ignorant landscapers (and homeowners) do to a garden.  I probably walked and drove by this stately old Jubaea chilensis hundreds, if not thousands of times. Amazing palm, right?

Several months back, there were some major renovations to the house and garden, and the landscapers had dug into the ground right up to the palm, which I thought looked sketchy.  The next time I went by, the Jubaea was gone and replaced with a full-size Syagrus romanzoffiana. 😬😧😖 What a rip.

 

[iDesign]

2 hours ago, Kim said:

It can be very painful what ignorant landscapers (and homeowners) do to a garden.  I probably walked and drove by this stately old Jubaea chilensis hundreds, if not thousands of times. Amazing palm, right?

Several months back, there were some major renovations to the house and garden, and the landscapers had dug into the ground right up to the palm, which I thought looked sketchy.  The next time I went by, the Jubaea was gone and replaced with a full-size Syagrus romanzoffiana. 😬😧😖 What a rip.

 

I'm going to picture in my mind that a palm collector purchased the Jubaea for a large amount of money, and it's now the centerpiece in a rare palm display. The homeowner made this sacrifice because they needed the money for something really important. Yeah, let's go with that... the actual truth is likely too hard to think of (please tell me you didn't see any evidence of Jubaea carnage). 🤞

[flplantguy]

The house is also another color, so i wonder if painting (and pressure washing) did some of the damage and they responded with this.  Ive seen chemicals destroy plants in yards (and then we were blamed) when the pressure washed roof tiles were done with chemical cleaners and the plant at the gutter spout died just after, or a dripline of burned leaves at the edge of the roofline. And the palms in the yard could have also been killed when they cleaned equipment.  Depending on the chemical it doesnt take much either. Its all ignorance and/or laziness and always awful to see. But i agree that company looks like your typical "mow blow and go" style, or jack of all trades that thinks my profession (and our passion for plants) is easy money.  Makes it very hard to create and compete for those that do have the skillset, we would usually get called in after this happens to save things that are already gone and just havent fully died.

[Stevetoad]

might also be that their insurance company made them cut anything that touches the house.  my father in law just had this happen to him. even after trimming everything they said that it wasn't good enough and made him cut down any palms that were within 8 feet of the house. after he had that done they canceled his policy. 

[happypalms]

I live in multiple occupancy or the good old hippie community. I planted some plants at our mailboxes and one of our residents thinks he’s a gardener and traumatises the plants every time he gets a pair of secauters in his hands. The cycas I can live with but the poor old arenga cops it all the time. The old saying never trust a farmer with a chainsaw is true. 

[Josue Diaz]

What a sad development. Reminds me of a parajubaea I had planted for my neighbor. She cared for it a few years but After she passed, the new owners put a bouncehouse over the palm for one of their kids birthday parties. After the party, the palm was pretty much leveled to the ground and eventually removed. 

[TropicsEnjoyer]

The worst part is, it’s not just palms being removed. Now more than ever people like to just get rid of plants altogether. I see where I live, the front and back yards don’t come with much, some basic bushes, small plants, and 2 trees front and back. Yet a lot of people get rid of the backyard trees (usually oak and bald cypress) and don’t do anything to make the yards look better. Ends up being builders grade landscaping and in the back straight up grass. No creativity, no interest in nature. 

It’s like we’re moving towards another stone age.

[Harry’s Palms]

10 hours ago, happypalms said:

I live in multiple occupancy or the good old hippie community. I planted some plants at our mailboxes and one of our residents thinks he’s a gardener and traumatises the plants every time he gets a pair of secauters in his hands. The cycas I can live with but the poor old arenga cops it all the time. The old saying never trust a farmer with a chainsaw is true. 

I would have a chat with that individual about the situation . In my humble experience , palms can survive over trimming but if it is not necessary why? I had to have a chat with my gardener about a Cycas that he trimmed , thinking he was doing me a favor , right after a nice flush of new fronds. I came home and the poor cycad looked like it had a butch haircut! I was very upset . I guess there are those that just want everything trimmed up tight . Hmmmm, Harry🤨

[Tyrone]

On 2/7/2025 at 7:26 AM, iDesign said:

I live in a relatively boring neighborhood, but there's one house I have always admired. Turns out it was landscaped with the help of our very own @BS Man about Palms many years ago.  And it's such a cool yard! Whenever I walk past it, I make sure to linger and study the palms (there are more cool ones in the back, as well as a huge Bismarckia not shown in this Google Capture).

BEFORE:

Well, something's happening at this address (likely being sold or rented), and the landscaping has been absolutely butchered.

EXHIBIT A:

What the heck?!!!! I truly hope that beautiful Hookeri Flamethrower will survive this attack, although I'm not sure what the chances are that it will. If it does live, I'll make sure to post a photo of its sad single "flame" poking up (it has sent up some amazing "flames" over the years). Such a terrible thing to do to that beautiful palm.
 

The Howea belmoreana took a beating too, but hopefully that one will pull through.  There are some other palms I seem to recall being in this area and will compare with Google Photos next time I'm down there to see what they removed. I was just so shocked by the flamethrower I forgot to check on the others.

EXHIBIT B:

'

I was soooooo happy to see they didn't attack the Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) decipiens!!! Now that would have made me even more angry, as I lovingly admire that palm each time I pass (imaging what mine will look like someday).

They did however cut down all but the very smallest of the Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) lutescens, which I shouldn't care about I suppose, but they actually looked pretty good in that sheltered location (no fried fronds) and the older stalks were quite attractive and above the roofline.

It looks like they removed several other palms from this area as well... I'll have to go back and see what else was removed - was just glad to see the decipiens was okay!!!

EXHIBIT 😄

I was tempted to post a negative review, but I"m not stupid enough to hire them (and for all I know they gave the new owners exactly what they asked for). I did go to their website though, and saw many examples of their work, which all looked like the following...

:: JUST KILL EVERYTHING ::

Which I suppose makes sense if you literally have a yard full of weeds and garbage... but a terrible idea to unleash this type of company on a home with many mature & rare plants. I also fear that they may have used roundup or something equally terrible in the yard.

Send thoughts and prayers. 💔 🙏

 

I think any Landscaping company that has their main motto as “Junk Removal and More” are not landscapers. They are just crap removal merchants. No diffrerent to farmers with chainsaws and bulldozers. 

[TropicsEnjoyer]

3 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I think any Landscaping company that has their main motto as “Junk Removal and More” are not landscapers. They are just crap removal merchants. No diffrerent to farmers with chainsaws and bulldozers. 

100% Agree. People need to realize they’re not bringing butchers, not caretakers, to their gardens. At the end of the day everything looks worse anyway. Wasting money on work a bear could do.

[happypalms]

17 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

I would have a chat with that individual about the situation . In my humble experience , palms can survive over trimming but if it is not necessary why? I had to have a chat with my gardener about a Cycas that he trimmed , thinking he was doing me a favor , right after a nice flush of new fronds. I came home and the poor cycad looked like it had a butch haircut! I was very upset . I guess there are those that just want everything trimmed up tight . Hmmmm, Harry🤨

 That been said I have given the neighbour a tray of twenty chambeyronia macrocarpa for him to plant around his property so we are working on one on one basis with palm education for the neighbours.

[Mazat]

On 7.2.2025 at 00:26, iDesign said:

Ich lebe in einer relativ langweiligen Nachbarschaft, aber es gibt ein Haus, das ich immer bewundert habe. Es stellte sich heraus, dass es mit Hilfe unserer eigenen@BS Man über Palmen vor vielen Jahren. Und es ist so ein cooler Garten! Immer wenn ich daran vorbeigehe, bleibe ich stehen und studiere die Palmen (hinten gibt es noch mehr coole Palmen und eine riesige Bismarckia, die in diesem Google Capture nicht zu sehen ist).

VOR:

Nun, an dieser Adresse tut sich etwas (wahrscheinlich wird es verkauft oder vermietet) und die Landschaftsgestaltung wurde völlig verstümmelt.

ANHANG A:

Was zum Teufel?!!!! Ich hoffe wirklich, dass dieser schöne Hookeri-Flammenwerfer diesen Angriff überlebt, obwohl ich mir nicht sicher bin, wie hoch die Chancen dafür sind. Wenn er überlebt, werde ich auf jeden Fall ein Foto seiner traurigen einzelnen „Flamme“ posten, die nach oben ragt (er hat im Laufe der Jahre einige erstaunliche „Flammen“ hervorgebracht). So etwas Schreckliches, das man dieser schönen Palme antut.
 

Die Howea belmoreana hat auch einiges abbekommen, aber hoffentlich wird sie es schaffen. Ich meine, mich an andere Palmen in dieser Gegend zu erinnern und werde sie das nächste Mal, wenn ich dort bin, mit Google Photos vergleichen, um zu sehen, was sie entfernt haben. Ich war einfach so schockiert über den Flammenwerfer, dass ich vergessen habe, nach den anderen zu schauen.

ANHANG B:

'

Ich war sooooooo froh, dass sie den Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) decipiens nicht angegriffen haben!!! Das hätte mich noch wütender gemacht, da ich diese Palme jedes Mal, wenn ich vorbeigehe, liebevoll bewundere (und mir vorstelle, wie meine eines Tages aussehen wird).

Sie haben jedoch alle Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) lutescens bis auf die allerkleinsten abgeschnitten, was mir eigentlich egal sein sollte, aber an dem geschützten Standort sahen sie eigentlich ganz gut aus (keine verbrannten Wedel) und die älteren Stiele waren recht ansprechend und ragten über die Dachlinie hinaus.

Es sieht so aus, als hätten sie auch mehrere andere Palmen aus dieser Gegend entfernt ... Ich muss zurückgehen und nachsehen, was sonst noch entfernt wurde – war nur froh, dass es der Decipiens-Palme gut ging!!!

AUSSTELLUNG 😄

Ich war versucht, eine negative Bewertung abzugeben, aber ich bin nicht dumm genug, sie zu beauftragen (und soweit ich weiß, haben sie den neuen Eigentümern genau das gegeben, was sie wollten). Ich bin jedoch auf ihre Website gegangen und habe viele Beispiele ihrer Arbeit gesehen, die alle wie folgt aussahen …

:: TÖTE EINFACH ALLES ::

Das macht wohl Sinn, wenn man buchstäblich einen Garten voller Unkraut und Müll hat ... aber es ist eine schreckliche Idee, diese Art von Unternehmen auf ein Haus mit vielen ausgewachsenen und seltenen Pflanzen loszulassen. Ich befürchte auch, dass sie Roundup oder etwas ähnlich Schreckliches im Garten verwendet haben könnten.

Sende Gedanken und Gebete.  💔  🙏

 

it seems to be a problem worldwide. here an old villa on the lake was demolished, although still well renovated recently. and yes, one palm tree trachycarpus fortunei out of a total of seven was spared. all the other various plants had to go. the new owners simply wanted a pool, according to the neighbors. 

[Mazat]

3 minutes ago, Mazat said:

it seems to be a problem worldwide. here an old villa on the lake was demolished, although still well renovated recently. and yes, one palm tree trachycarpus fortunei out of a total of seven was spared. all the other various plants had to go. the new owners simply wanted a pool, according to the neighbors. 

the company carrying out the work is known for radical solutions or, to put it politely, bad advice.

[Patrick]

On 2/7/2025 at 9:47 AM, iDesign said:

I'm going to picture in my mind that a palm collector purchased the Jubaea for a large amount of money, and it's now the centerpiece in a rare palm display. The homeowner made this sacrifice because they needed the money for something really important. Yeah, let's go with that... the actual truth is likely too hard to think of (please tell me you didn't see any evidence of Jubaea carnage). 🤞

The movie Idiocracy was a documentary.

[DoomsDave]

Bummer!

[Rivera]

On 2/8/2025 at 7:37 AM, TropicsEnjoyer said:

The worst part is, it’s not just palms being removed. Now more than ever people like to just get rid of plants altogether. I see where I live, the front and back yards don’t come with much, some basic bushes, small plants, and 2 trees front and back. Yet a lot of people get rid of the backyard trees (usually oak and bald cypress) and don’t do anything to make the yards look better. Ends up being builders grade landscaping and in the back straight up grass. No creativity, no interest in nature. 

It’s like we’re moving towards another stone age.

Yeah. While I have seen plenty of this go on in my concrete-rich/plant-poor neighborhood, I am pleased to share that when houses go up for sale now, I am seeing new owners take an interest in at least a bit of landscaping more often. 

Maybe only a local trend, but perhaps there is hope. 

[iDesign]

On 2/8/2025 at 7:37 AM, TropicsEnjoyer said:

The worst part is, it’s not just palms being removed. Now more than ever people like to just get rid of plants altogether…

I drove by the house today and saw the “landscapers” were back… this time digging out a lot of the smaller plants.

If I see any signs that they might remove the mature Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) decipiens I’m very tempted to make an offer on it! Any chance it would survive a transplant at that size? I ask because the huge one in Modesto died from a transplant attempt.

To clarify, the decipiens is NOT for sale… I’m just wondering whether to interrupt the work with an offer if it starts looking like they might remove it. 🤔

[Johnny Palmseed]

@iDesign You should offer to take it if it’s being removed. Many times the homeowner doesn’t care about it anyway and just wants it gone. I don’t think it would be worth the risk to buy it unless you had a crew who could dig it for you. They don’t look like the type who would be very careful in the process.

[Darold Petty]

Gary Gragg, who moved the Modesto C. decipiens, is highly experienced in moving large palms. He moved it to one of his own,  private properties, with a microclimate very similar to Modesto.   If the transplant wouldn't work for him I would estimate the chances of success to be ' slim to none'.     

[TropicsEnjoyer]

20 hours ago, iDesign said:

I drove by the house today and saw the “landscapers” were back… this time digging out a lot of the smaller plants.

If I see any signs that they might remove the mature Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) decipiens I’m very tempted to make an offer on it! Any chance it would survive a transplant at that size? I ask because the huge one in Modesto died from a transplant attempt.

To clarify, the decipiens is NOT for sale… I’m just wondering whether to interrupt the work with an offer if it starts looking like they might remove it. 🤔

If i were you I would just go ahead and ask what they are getting rid of straight off the bat. They’re not gonna lose anything by telling you if it all gets shredded anyway. Because before you know it, that place will be a lifeless concrete fortress.

[iDesign]

12 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Gary Gragg, who moved the Modesto C. decipiens, is highly experienced in moving large palms. He moved it to one of his own,  private properties, with a microclimate very similar to Modesto.   If the transplant wouldn't work for him I would estimate the chances of success to be ' slim to none'.     

Yep, that’s what I figured. 🤔

I saw that video, but was thinking this one is smaller… so maybe? But it’s also quite old, so roots are  probably spread far.  And like you said, if a professional like Gary couldn’t save a well cared for one, then my chances for saving this abused one would be next to 0️⃣.

If I see them getting ready to dig or cut it, I’ll probably still ask if I can have it, but not pay for it. Best case is that they just keep it there, so I can continue admitting it on my walks. 🤞

[Darold Petty]

About a year ago signs were put up on my street announcing that a tree service company employed by the City of San Francisco would be 'trimming' the street trees. The workers arrived a day before the scheduled date, and 15 minutes before the start time, at 7:45 AM.

My Howea belmoreana is on city property, between the sidewalk and street curb.   The workers used a chain saw to cut off 85% of the healthy fronds, and not even through the petioles, but by deep gashes in the leafbases.  I applied powdered sulfur to the wounds but to no avail.  Here are two images taken today.  I paid $815 for this palm 13 years ago in a 24 inch box. 

[ASHCVS]

4 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

About a year ago signs were put up on my street announcing that a tree service company employed by the City of San Francisco would be 'trimming' the street trees. The workers arrived a day before the scheduled date, and 15 minutes before the start time, at 7:45 AM.

My Howea belmoreana is on city property, between the sidewalk and street curb.   The workers used a chain saw to cut off 85% of the healthy fronds, and not even through the petioles, but by deep gashes in the leafbases.  I applied powdered sulfur to the wounds but to no avail.  Here are two images taken today.  I paid $815 for this palm 13 years ago in a 24 inch box. 

That’s beyond unconscionable @Darold Petty  so sorry to read this. 

[iDesign]

12 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

About a year ago signs were put up on my street announcing that a tree service company employed by the City of San Francisco would be 'trimming' the street trees. The workers arrived a day before the scheduled date, and 15 minutes before the start time, at 7:45 AM.

My Howea belmoreana is on city property, between the sidewalk and street curb.   The workers used a chain saw to cut off 85% of the healthy fronds, and not even through the petioles, but by deep gashes in the leafbases.  I applied powdered sulfur to the wounds but to no avail.  Here are two images taken today.  I paid $815 for this palm 13 years ago in a 24 inch box. 

Oh, that's heartbreaking. I'm so sorry for your loss. 💔

At least in my case, the original owner of the palms had moved and the new owners apparently don't care whether they live or die. But this was a beloved palm, which was very-much wanted. And whomever cut it likely knew it was loved... since they could obviously see that a palm-lover lived right next to it. Cruel and horrible.  

[Darold Petty]

I plan to ask the City to compensate me for the purchase price.  Phil told me the replacement value for a H. belmoreana with 48 inches of trunk would be about $2000, plus the expenses of a truck trip to San Diego county.

After I expressed my shock and dismay to the foreman(who could care less)  the worker who butchered the palm taunted me with screwy facial expressions.  He also attempted to cut off  0.25 inch diameter branches from my small Ginkgo tree using the same chainsaw before I intervened .

[iDesign]

31 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

I plan to ask the City to compensate me for the purchase price.  Phil told me the replacement value for a H. belmoreana with 48 inches of trunk would be about $2000, plus the expenses of a truck trip to San Diego county.

After I expressed my shock and dismay to the foreman(who could care less)  the worker who butchered the palm taunted me with screwy facial expressions.  He also attempted to cut off  0.25 inch diameter branches from my small Ginkgo tree using the same chainsaw before I intervened .

I would love to see a "before" photo of your murdered palm if it's not too painful.

In tribute, I found this photo that you posted of it back in 2016. It was stunning even 9 years ago...

RIP beautiful (and well-loved) palm. 🥲

[Billeb]

42 minutes ago, iDesign said:

 

RIP beautiful (and well-loved) palm. 🥲

Wow! Perfectly grown. 
 

sorry @Darold Petty, I hope you get some money for your loss. 
 

-dale 

[Palmerr]

On 2/7/2025 at 10:28 AM, Kim said:

It can be very painful what ignorant landscapers (and homeowners) do to a garden.  I probably walked and drove by this stately old Jubaea chilensis hundreds, if not thousands of times. Amazing palm, right?

Several months back, there were some major renovations to the house and garden, and the landscapers had dug into the ground right up to the palm, which I thought looked sketchy.  The next time I went by, the Jubaea was gone and replaced with a full-size Syagrus romanzoffiana. 😬😧😖 What a rip.

 

That jubaea is so beautiful i think they look better than CIDP i love the difference from the other palms all you see in CA is CA Fans and stuff! and CIDP's in San Francisco!

[rick]

On 2/10/2025 at 12:40 AM, iDesign said:

I drove by the house today and saw the “landscapers” were back… this time digging out a lot of the smaller plants.

If I see any signs that they might remove the mature Chrysalidocarpus (Dypsis) decipiens I’m very tempted to make an offer on it! Any chance it would survive a transplant at that size? I ask because the huge one in Modesto died from a transplant attempt.

To clarify, the decipiens is NOT for sale… I’m just wondering whether to interrupt the work with an offer if it starts looking like they might remove it. 🤔

Sounds like the new owners are not plant people at all.  They probably have no idea and probably don't care that any of their palms are special. I would make them an offer for the decipiens. Even if its not officially for sale I would bet they see it as a way to make some money out of something they see as having no value. If they aren't in a hurry, do some root pruning over the course of several weeks/month to get the largest rootball possible.  

[Cindy Adair]

These are such sad stories of needless losses. 
 

[peachy]

20 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

About a year ago signs were put up on my street announcing that a tree service company employed by the City of San Francisco would be 'trimming' the street trees. The workers arrived a day before the scheduled date, and 15 minutes before the start time, at 7:45 AM.

My Howea belmoreana is on city property, between the sidewalk and street curb.   The workers used a chain saw to cut off 85% of the healthy fronds, and not even through the petioles, but by deep gashes in the leafbases.  I applied powdered sulfur to the wounds but to no avail.  Here are two images taken today.  I paid $815 for this palm 13 years ago in a 24 inch box. 

On the plus side @Darold Petty it is now the perfect size and shape to shove it up the culprit's you know where. Shame it wasn't a spiky species.

Peachy the Impaler

[Harry’s Palms]

These are just a few stories of a wide spread lack of botanical appreciation. Hard to read and see photos of , but a reality. There are enough of us that do appreciate collections , so hopefully we can offset this random assault . In my area , particularly near and around Ventura , there are some lovely , well maintained collections . I know where some of them are and plan my cycling adventures around visiting them . Harry

This is near an industrial park in Ventura !