Scandinavian/North European Palms

[Mandos]

The definite forum-thread of zone-pushers trying their luck with palms in Scandinavia and Northern Europe in general. 

Kicking of this thread I'll share this climate-screenshot of my south-scandinavian hometown of Karlskrona (USDA Zone 8b/9a). Compiled and verified by myself after countless hours of scrolling through climate data! 

At the moment, i'm only growing Trachycarpus fortunei palms. Would love to grow other species in the future. I am very tempted with trying CIDP...

Any other suggestions?

 

[ChrisA]

Greetings and welcome to PalmTalk!  I think CIDP would be tough given the consistent chill in the winter with high humidity. With protection I think you could enjoy several years. The data you posted makes me nervous just because the records in those data only go back to 2010.  I know it’s not quite as close to the coast, but Ronneby has records going back to 1948 and has recorded MUCH colder temperatures than the chart would suggest for Karlskrona.  I’d love to know how your Trachycarpus are doing as I think they are an excellent choice for your location and other than maybe needing protection from any salty or vicious winds, would excel in your climate MOST of the time. Your winters may be dark and often cloudy, but there is nothing better than a Swedish summer, especially when it’s sunny!

 

There are a few others from Scandinavia that post here and have shared some very valuable data and experiences from Sweden and Norway. Please include some photos of your Trachys, I’m sure we would all like to see them.

Med vanliga hälsningar,

Chris Anderson

 

 

[Mandos]

Thank you Chris (perhaps swedish descendant?) I have been lurking around the forum for a while... Decided it was time to actually create an account 😁

Your concerns are entirely valid. It is actually the naval base which keeps track of the weather station which they began back in march of 2010, so almost 15 years. Historically, there used to be weather stations "nearer" Ronneby in the villages of Nättraby and Marielund. Worth mentioning is how data from Ronneby is from their airport, which is a further inland in comparison with both Ronneby and Karlskrona.

I however think the current station which is located - as in the rest of Karlskrona - right on the sea, gives a better representation of the city as a whole. Aka, notoriously mild (in a swedish context). January last year 2024 was one of the coldest in a long time. I consider the Ängelholm-area in Skåne as palm country, largely thanks to Leif Klingström and his website SnowPams from the 2000s. Even so Ängeholm weren't unscathed from the cold with an extreme -17,1°C reading. Karlskrona on the other hand only read -11,7°C and Ronneby recored -15,6°C during the same cold snap. Almost unheard of with south swedish standards in mind. Since then, i've decided to plant 2 trachys to really test them in eastern Blekinge, aswell as been keeping track of daily data regarding min/max, humidity, sea temp etc. Really fun pastime leisure! The only real problem as you said is the wind, not necessarily salty since the Baltic sea is brackish, but theyre sometimes quite heavy and more or less ubiquitous during the entire year. But luckily their planted in non exposed locale. 

Map of annual sunshine values, compiled in 2017. Being in a rain shadow really is something. In Sweden we have something called the "Solligan" a competition where all Swedish cities (with a sunshine measuring station) compete against each other during summer to se who has the most sunshine. Karlskrona usually never wins, but always places amongst the highest. Winners are usually island locaels so not really referable to most people. I usually say Karlskrona is the closest you'll come to the isles, while on the mainland. It's a Cfb/Csb/BsK-climate after all...  

 

Do trachys enjoy lots of summer sun after a dreary overcast winter? I'm still quite unexperienced with them. But i've figured that since their natural habitat usually sees heavy rain showers and gloomy summers in Monsoonal China, sunshine wouldn't be ideal. On the other hand, summer temps here are low compared to China so maybe it doesn't have a big effect. Karlskrona can atleast boast with amongst the highest annual humidities found in Sweden, even though summer rainfall is extremely scarce.

July:

And last but not least, the trachys!

First from june 2024

 

 

Screenshot_2025-02-11-13-10-39-59_92460851df6f172a4592fca41cc2d2e6.jpg

2.2 MB

 

Second now from january 2025 

 

 

2025-01-28T12_06_29+01_00.JPEG

9.1 MB

 

[Mandos]

Weird format im sorry 😅

[Marco67]

Welcome Mandos to the forum. I think Karlskrona has more of an 8a cool Oceanic climate, similar to what we have in the Netherlands. 

For such a climate, you at least need an 9a/9b climate to have any chance with an unprotected Phoenix Canariensis I think. 

Butia or Jubaea are a bit hardier than Phoenix Canariensis, but they don't even seem to make it long-term in the southwest of our country, so I personally won't give it much of a chance where you live either. The climate is getting better for these subtropical plants, but there are still these cold snaps, unfortunately. 

Your best bet is probably still the good old Trachycarpus or perhaps Chamaerops. Also Sabals may be an option, but they will be very slow-growing. 

Nowadays, there are also all sorts of new Trachycarpus species that you could try. They are much hardier for a cool/damp climate than, for example Phoenix or Washingtonia. I had a Manipur which did pretty well, and also Princeps seems to do very well here. 

http://palmvrienden.net/gblapalmeraie/2017/06/30/trachycarpus-species-a-complete-overview/

[DreaminAboutPalms]

[Las Palmas Norte]

A refreshing thread. Welcome.

A rather cold hardy palm you might consider would be Needle palm (Rhapidophyllum hystrix). Some winter protection for the first several years is quite likely.

[Mandos]

5 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Welcome Mandos to the forum. I think Karlskrona has more of an 8a cool Oceanic climate, similar to what we have in the Netherlands. 

For such a climate, you at least need an 9a/9b climate to have any chance with an unprotected Phoenix Canariensis I think. 

Butia or Jubaea are a bit hardier than Phoenix Canariensis, but they don't even seem to make it long-term in the southwest of our country, so I personally won't give it much of a chance where you live either. The climate is getting better for these subtropical plants, but there are still these cold snaps, unfortunately. 

Your best bet is probably still the good old Trachycarpus or perhaps Chamaerops. Also Sabals may be an option, but they will be very slow-growing. 

Nowadays, there are also all sorts of new Trachycarpus species that you could try. They are much hardier for a cool/damp climate than, for example Phoenix or Washingtonia. I had a Manipur which did pretty well, and also Princeps seems to do very well here. 

http://palmvrienden.net/gblapalmeraie/2017/06/30/trachycarpus-species-a-complete-overview/

Thank you for the warm welcome! Really appreciate it

Our climates are definitely similiar, although mine is sadly more continental although sunnier. Regarding climate, Karlskrona is using the 2011- period (instead of 2021) officially an 9a climate. Weirdly enough. And the summer sun makes me very tempted, it would give such a boost to the city already located in the province known as "the garden of Sweden".  Like you say butias and jubaeas as well as sabals are interesting and more realistic choices (although personally not on par with CIDP), especially jubaeas. Sadly i have no idea where to get seeds from and the investment is way to risky given its long maturing time. 

Guessing your manipur died recently?    

As a fellow EU-member, where do you buy your grown plants? Local nurseries? And what do you grow?

I have watched the Belgian youtube channel Dimis exotic garden, I figure your garden could theoretically look similar?

    

[Mandos]

4 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

I consider these palms as the pioneers in swedish palm culture. Probably one of the first tries serious of attempting to grow trachys in Sweden, since they were planted by the local municipality. They became quite well known in the area, probably influential in further cementing Skanör as one of Sweden's finest vacation spots with the mildest weather.    

Skanör located on the Falsterbo peninsula used to over 20 years ago be firmly placed in 8a. Today it is probably generally higher especially since Karlskrona is 8b minimum. A 9-rating wouldnt be impossible. These palms are documented to have survived around -13/-15ºC during the '03 winter without serious protection. During their lifespan they managed to actually grow a bit since planting in '99. Sadly wiped out during the extremely harsh winters of 2009/2010 and 2010/2011. Back to back extreme cold, too much for these palms. Nearby Malmö recorded the lowest temperature in many years with a -22,2ºC in jan '10 followed up by a -16,2ºC in december the same year. Also February colder than usual. All while July was way hotter than usual with mediterranean conditions in eastern Skåne, average monthly temps of 20ºC and barely any rain - hardly ideal growing conditions for these mild-weather-loving palms. Any resemblance of life left was then quickly wiped out by a cool January (2011) followed by a very cold February. 

For reference the Baltic Sea Ice coverage officially covered 315 000 km2 reaching it's maximum on February 25th. Bigger than Italy and more than 10 times the size of Belgium. For any Americans here in chat that is 3 times larger than Kentucky. If that Ice would be a state, it would be the 5th biggest, just edging out New Mexico. Half the size of Texas. 70% the size of California. 

These trachys were extremely unlucky those years and sadly paid the ultimate price.

[Mandos]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

A refreshing thread. Welcome.

A rather cold hardy palm you might consider would be Needle palm (Rhapidophyllum hystrix). Some winter protection for the first several years is quite likely.

Thank you! Trying to widen the discussion with a dedicated thread

Needle palm would undeniably be - a choice. Sadly not trunking and slow growing. Perfect for discrete landscaping though. Something i consider underrated especially in the palm community. I know some spots perfect for it....

Under the assumption that online sources are trustworthy - i highly doubt winter protection the first few years would be necessary. Realistic cold tolerance of -20,5ºC/−5 °F in hot-summer climates. Perhaps some percent worse in warm summer-climates?

As a fellow Csb-native (wild take, i know), have you planted one? If so did you need to protect it and how did it fare with warm summers?

   

[DreaminAboutPalms]

Not sure how accurate this map is, but it looks like there are a few 8b locations actually. 

Apart from historic freezes, I don't see why Trachy's wouldn't survive semi-long term there. Especially if they are sited properly and protected during deep freezes

Trachies are all over Switzerland, and many of the cities in which they grow like Lucerne there isn't really that drastic of a difference when it comes to average temperatures compared to a warm Swedish city like Malmö. Now I know things like precipitation, sunshine, record low temps, altitude, etc are important factors, but still. 

[Swolte]

9 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Your best bet is probably still the good old Trachycarpus or perhaps Chamaerops. Also Sabals may be an option, but they will be very slow-growing. 

Spot on, imo. 

I wonder if people tried Serenoa Repens in those areas with good drainage. These are very hardy and, my personal & unsystematic observation, grow more in late spring here in Texas (and not the hot summers, like Brahea/Sabals, etc...). I am sure they are faster with more consistent heat for 9+ months but they are slow regardless. I believe they have some at Kew Gardens in the UK, @UK_Palms?

How much patience do you have? 

[Mandos]

10 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Not sure how accurate this map is, but it looks like there are a few 8b locations actually. 

Apart from historic freezes, I don't see why Trachy's wouldn't survive semi-long term there. Especially if they are sited properly and protected during deep freezes

Trachies are all over Switzerland, and many of the cities in which they grow like Lucerne there isn't really that drastic of a difference when it comes to average temperatures compared to a warm Swedish city like Malmö. Now I know things like precipitation, sunshine, record low temps, altitude, etc are important factors, but still. 

I've seen that map before and it is a bit poor. The entirety of coastal Skåne is 8a minimum, as well as some pockets of 8b being 9a. I.e the small rock of Utklippan in the Baltic or other extreme coastal positions on Gotland or Öland. Otherwise it's quite spot on, gives a good general understanding of what climates are milder in comparison with others.

I mean if trachys can get up-right get invasive in som parts of Switzerland, they should be able to atleast be safely viable in southern Sweden. There is barely any difference between average annual between the Lucerne and Malmö in addition to our coastal position which renders cold-snaps even milder.   

[Mandos]

9 hours ago, Swolte said:

Spot on, imo. 

I wonder if people tried Serenoa Repens in those areas with good drainage. These are very hardy and, my personal & unsystematic observation, grow more in late spring here in Texas (and not the hot summers, like Brahea/Sabals, etc...). I am sure they are faster with more consistent heat for 9+ months but they are slow regardless. I believe they have some at Kew Gardens in the UK, @UK_Palms?

How much patience do you have? 

The time will pass regardless. Not keen on protective measures though. Endless patience. 

If what you say is true then Serenoa Repens would probably be an excellent choice here in Europe. But your late springs are still like high 80s/30C regardless, aka our hottest days in summer. Problem would be finding a good drainage spot, no part of Europe is comparable with the drainage of Texas...        

[Swolte]

55 minutes ago, Mandos said:

Problem would be finding a good drainage spot, no part of Europe is comparable with the drainage of Texas...        

I think the drainage is the least of your problems if you're able to spend some effort and money. You can amend and mound with a better draining soil medium (I am using expanded shale). I am in heavy clay, mostly and I sometimes mound up 50cm+ 

 

[Mandos]

2 hours ago, Swolte said:

I think the drainage is the least of your problems if you're able to spend some effort and money. You can amend and mound with a better draining soil medium (I am using expanded shale). I am in heavy clay, mostly and I sometimes mound up 50cm+ 

 

Oh sorry my bad, I greatly misunderstood what you meant. Post-glacial Sweden is very well drained since all clay and generally fine-grained materials either been scraped away by ice or washed away by the isostatic rebound. Those materials can only be found in certain valleys. And Skåne ofc... Our soil is largely dominated på well-drained moraine and. 

If Serenoa Repens dislikes waterlogging in clay and is full-sun dependendet (?) then Karlskrona has a worth while chance of sustaining the palm, especially in comparison with other parts of south Sweden. 

Would love to try one, if they're able to obtain in the EU. Growing from seed is preferably a last outcome.

Note how Western Skåne has the largest density of heavy clay...

[Mandos]

Does anyone have experience with Phoenix theophrasti var. Epidaurus? Estimated cold hardiness of -15ºC in the Netherlands... Lots of hype around them 

@Marco67

[Marco67]

On 2/12/2025 at 11:29 PM, Mandos said:

Thank you for the warm welcome! Really appreciate it

Our climates are definitely similiar, although mine is sadly more continental although sunnier. Regarding climate, Karlskrona is using the 2011- period (instead of 2021) officially an 9a climate. Weirdly enough. And the summer sun makes me very tempted, it would give such a boost to the city already located in the province known as "the garden of Sweden".  Like you say butias and jubaeas as well as sabals are interesting and more realistic choices (although personally not on par with CIDP), especially jubaeas. Sadly i have no idea where to get seeds from and the investment is way to risky given its long maturing time. 

Guessing your manipur died recently?    

As a fellow EU-member, where do you buy your grown plants? Local nurseries? And what do you grow?

I have watched the Belgian youtube channel Dimis exotic garden, I figure your garden could theoretically look similar?

    

Always nice to meet a fellow European in this forum. It tends to focus on Texas, Florida and New Mexico a lot, it seems 😄
Sometimes they sell Butias and Jubaea Chilensis online; you might take a look. CIDP are pretty impressive and one of my favorites as well, but unprotected longtime they won't make it here. The first place you see them on the Atlantic coast is probably Brittany. 

Things like Trachycarpus and Chamaerops they sell in garden centers. For the more exclusive stuff, you really need to go online. Also, if you are patient, you can buy seeds as well. I did that in the past, and it is great fun to see your seedling grow into a big palm. Also, things like Cipres Sempervirens and Olive trees might give your garden a more exotic look. 

Here is my climate. It's Den Haag, but that is close to where I live. Not exactly Spain but not bad either.

My Manipur did well and I consider it one of the more hardy Trachycarpus species among the new varieties. Unfortunately, I only have a small garden and had to sell it. 

Below are some photos of my garden. 

Chamaerops Vulcano

Chamaerops Cerifera

 

Chamaerops Humilis

Trachycarpus

My smaller Chamaerops Cerifera. 

[Marco67]

4 hours ago, Mandos said:

Does anyone have experience with Phoenix theophrasti var. Epidaurus? Estimated cold hardiness of -15ºC in the Netherlands... Lots of hype around them 

@Marco67

Hi Mandos,

I have a couple grown from seeds. I normally buy my seeds from this site https://www.rarepalmseeds.com/ 

Theophrasti seems to be quite a lot hardier than Dactylifera, at least that is my experience here with our cool damp winters. It might be an option for you to try as well. 

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

37 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

Always nice to meet a fellow European in this forum. It tends to focus on Texas, Florida and New Mexico a lot, it seems 😄
Sometimes they sell Butias and Jubaea Chilensis online; you might take a look. CIDP are pretty impressive and one of my favorites as well, but unprotected longtime they won't make it here. The first place you see them on the Atlantic coast is probably Brittany. 

Things like Trachycarpus and Chamaerops they sell in garden centers. For the more exclusive stuff, you really need to go online. Also, if you are patient, you can buy seeds as well. I did that in the past, and it is great fun to see your seedling grow into a big palm. Also, things like Cipres Sempervirens and Olive trees might give your garden a more exotic look. 

Here is my climate. It's Den Haag, but that is close to where I live. Not exactly Spain but not bad either.

My Manipur did well and I consider it one of the more hardy Trachycarpus species among the new varieties. Unfortunately, I only have a small garden and had to sell it. 

Below are some photos of my garden. 

Chamaerops Vulcano

Chamaerops Cerifera

 

Chamaerops Humilis

Trachycarpus

My smaller Chamaerops Cerifera. 

Beautiful windmills there Marco67. Quick question. Of the three chamaerops you have pictured, which one has proven the hardiest? Thanks.

[Marco67]

2 minutes ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

Beautiful windmills there Marco67. Quick question. Of the three chamaerops you have pictured, which one has proven the hardiest? Thanks.

Thanks. It seems the Cerifera is the hardiest. All my Chamareops palms experienced a low of -17 C/1.5 F in 2012 and they all survived. The Humilis seems to grow the fastest and recovers from damage the quickest. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 2/12/2025 at 3:33 PM, Mandos said:

...Under the assumption that online sources are trustworthy - i highly doubt winter protection the first few years would be necessary. Realistic cold tolerance of -20,5ºC/−5 °F in hot-summer climates. Perhaps some percent worse in warm summer-climates?...

One would think so as have I. As odd as it seems, newly planted Needle palms are susceptible to crown rot typically with the larger main stem. The smaller offsets seem to weather the first few years better. Providing an overhead canopy assists overcoming this issue. 

[Arecaceus]

On 2/12/2025 at 5:36 PM, Marco67 said:

Welcome Mandos to the forum. I think Karlskrona has more of an 8a cool Oceanic climate, similar to what we have in the Netherlands. 

For such a climate, you at least need an 9a/9b climate to have any chance with an unprotected Phoenix Canariensis I think. 

Butia or Jubaea are a bit hardier than Phoenix Canariensis, but they don't even seem to make it long-term in the southwest of our country, so I personally won't give it much of a chance where you live either. The climate is getting better for these subtropical plants, but there are still these cold snaps, unfortunately. 

Your best bet is probably still the good old Trachycarpus or perhaps Chamaerops. Also Sabals may be an option, but they will be very slow-growing. 

Nowadays, there are also all sorts of new Trachycarpus species that you could try. They are much hardier for a cool/damp climate than, for example Phoenix or Washingtonia. I had a Manipur which did pretty well, and also Princeps seems to do very well here. 

http://palmvrienden.net/gblapalmeraie/2017/06/30/trachycarpus-species-a-complete-overview/

Wait what? Butias and Jubaeas don't make it in the southwest of the Netherlands? Why?

[Arecaceus]

I'm with the others I would try Chamaerops next. They are very cold hardy. Not too far off from Trachies. You have to try various plants and see for yourself how they do in you garden. When you look on this forum people have completely different experiences. Also what I've learned is that some plants that shouldn't do well/are borderline in your climate do just fine and other supposedly hardy species succumb to normal winters. It also depends on other factors like the amount of frost days, how many ice days and so on. USDA zones are just an indicator but technically some 8b zone could hit -8°C every year while another would do that only every couple of years.

[kristof p]

4 hours ago, Arecaceus said:

Wait what? Butias and Jubaeas don't make it in the southwest of the Netherlands? Why?

they do survive without much trouble, at least here in west flanders which is just south of south west Netherlands. Butia and Jubaea don't get any damage after cold winters up here. (cold winters see lows of around -7/-8). during the extreme cold winters like the ones around 2010 only trachycarpus surives without much damage and Butia, Jubaea and chamaerops do need some protection to survive without much damage. I have not protected my Jubaeas and Butia  since 2012 and never saw any damage on them. The only palm I give some light protection is my Livistona chinensies.

[Las Palmas Norte]

4 hours ago, Arecaceus said:

I'm with the others I would try Chamaerops next. They are very cold hardy. Not too far off from Trachies. You have to try various plants and see for yourself how they do in you garden. When you look on this forum people have completely different experiences. Also what I've learned is that some plants that shouldn't do well/are borderline in your climate do just fine and other supposedly hardy species succumb to normal winters. It also depends on other factors like the amount of frost days, how many ice days and so on. USDA zones are just an indicator but technically some 8b zone could hit -8°C every year while another would do that only every couple of years.

Yes! Often here we see text book or internet gardeners. They'll quote "facts" and figures, graphs and charts from many sources. All fine, but only a part of the equation.

[kristof p]

4 hours ago, Arecaceus said:

I'm with the others I would try Chamaerops next. They are very cold hardy. Not too far off from Trachies. You have to try various plants and see for yourself how they do in you garden. When you look on this forum people have completely different experiences. Also what I've learned is that some plants that shouldn't do well/are borderline in your climate do just fine and other supposedly hardy species succumb to normal winters. It also depends on other factors like the amount of frost days, how many ice days and so on. USDA zones are just an indicator but technically some 8b zone could hit -8°C every year while another would do that only every couple of years.

Chamaerops humilis (the normal green form) is only hardy till around -8°C if there are not many days when temperatures stay below freezing. they can take a lot lower temperatures but the stems will die. they will regrow from the roots. C. vulcano is hardier but the most hardy is definitely C. cerifera. Trachycarpus is much hardier!!!

[Arecaceus]

42 minutes ago, kristof p said:

they do survive without much trouble, at least here in west flanders which is just south of south west Netherlands. Butia and Jubaea don't get any damage after cold winters up here. (cold winters see lows of around -7/-8). during the extreme cold winters like the ones around 2010 only trachycarpus surives without much damage and Butia, Jubaea and chamaerops do need some protection to survive without much damage. I have not protected my Jubaeas and Butia  since 2012 and never saw any damage on them. The only palm I give some light protection is my Livistona chinensies.

I would have thought so because Jubaeas are really tough. They are not as hardy as often stated in the books but definitely very hardy.

[Marco67]

5 hours ago, Arecaceus said:

Wait what? Butias and Jubaeas don't make it in the southwest of the Netherlands? Why?

Butia and Jubeae seem to rot quite easily. I personally lost a Butia Capitata and Butia Eriospatha some years ago. They also seem to need quite some heat to grow as well.

With winters like we are having the last few years, they will probably make it. But I can also remember the winters of 2010/2012/2013 with temperatures below -10 °C/14 °F and cold weather for over a week.

These are killer conditions for Butia and Jubaea, and only Trachycarpus and Chamaerops (with a lot of damage) can survive that. With those kinds of winters, they both need substantial protection to have any chance.

[Arecaceus]

39 minutes ago, kristof p said:

Chamaerops humilis (the normal green form) is only hardy till around -8°C if there are not many days when temperatures stay below freezing. they can take a lot lower temperatures but the stems will die. they will regrow from the roots. C. vulcano is hardier but the most hardy is definitely C. cerifera. Trachycarpus is much hardier!!!

I've read that C. humilis green form in similar climates to mine sometimes die off and resprout from the shoots but in my experience the only damage C. humilis has taken was foliar in extreme winters. My Chamaerops always look pristine after normal winters. They seem to be fully hardy here. I also had seedling volunteers survive the 2021 winter. On the other hand C. vulcano for me has shown damage more often than C. green form. I saw some good foliar damage after -4/-5°C on them before. C. cerifera seems indestructable as well but it takes longer to look big with its smaller leaves.

I had C. humilis in my front garden become quiet bushy before I had to trim it. Having nice green leaves from top to bottom:





Those were all the fronds I cut off in 2021:



I also have some more C. humilis in my garden. Most normal green form.

[Marco67]

1 hour ago, kristof p said:

they do survive without much trouble, at least here in west flanders which is just south of south west Netherlands. Butia and Jubaea don't get any damage after cold winters up here. (cold winters see lows of around -7/-8). during the extreme cold winters like the ones around 2010 only trachycarpus surives without much damage and Butia, Jubaea and chamaerops do need some protection to survive without much damage. I have not protected my Jubaeas and Butia  since 2012 and never saw any damage on them. The only palm I give some light protection is my Livistona chinensies.

If you live in an 8B climate, on average you experience winters with temperature lows of -9.4°C to -6.7°C. which is already pretty close to what they can take. Also, the duration of the cold is important. I think they can withstand short periods of cold, but not cold conditions for over a week. That will kill them. It warms up very slowly here in the north and it will take until April/May before it gets significantly warmer.

Perhaps West Flanders is a bit milder than here and you don't have these problems. 

[Arecaceus]

7 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

Butia and Jubeae seem to rot quite easily. I personally lost a Butia Capitata and Butia Eriospatha some years ago. They also seem to need quite some heat to grow as well.

With winters like we are having the last few years, they will probably make it. But I can also remember the winters of 2010/2012/2013 with temperatures below -10 °C/14 °F and cold weather for over a week.

These are killer conditions for Butia and Jubaea, and only Trachycarpus and Chamaerops (with a lot of damage) can survive that. With those kinds of winters, they both need substantial protection to have any chance.

From what it sounds like it might be the cool/wet conditions? But in Flanders they do fine? Here Jubaeas seem to survive long term. As well as T. fortunei and C. humilis. Despite milder winters in recent years winters have become more wet for me and there are constant temp ups and downs and I got damage with plants I never had issues before in worse winters. So far nothing on Butia or Jubaea though. There are also some Butias growing in the area. Some apparently also long term.

[Marco67]

1 hour ago, Arecaceus said:

From what it sounds like it might be the cool/wet conditions? But in Flanders they do fine? Here Jubaeas seem to survive long term. As well as T. fortunei and C. humilis. Despite milder winters in recent years winters have become more wet for me and there are constant temp ups and downs and I got damage with plants I never had issues before in worse winters. So far nothing on Butia or Jubaea though. There are also some Butias growing in the area. Some apparently also long term.

Some people try them here as well, and with protection during colder winters, they can make it. But when they get bigger, this becomes an issue of course.

I think one of the main problems is the duration of the cold. We don't have short cold snaps like they have on the East Coast of the US. When it gets cold here, it can stay cold sometimes for over a week. Also, the winter dampness doesn't help.

By long-term, I mean something like 30+ years. The last 10 winters were pretty mild over here, but it is better not to get fooled by that; these cold periods will return one day.

[Arecaceus]

15 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

Some people try them here as well, and with protection during colder winters, they can make it. But when they get bigger, this becomes an issue of course.

I think one of the main problems is the duration of the cold. We don't have short cold snaps like they have on the East Coast of the US. When it gets cold here, it can stay cold sometimes for over a week. Also, the winter dampness doesn't help.

By long-term, I mean something like 30+ years. The last 10 winters were pretty mild over here, but it is better not to get fooled by that; these cold periods will return one day.

Here we get a really bad winter every 10 years or so. 2009/2010 was crazy as well as was the one in 2021. I don't know if it requires 30+ years to say something is hardy. But I think there are some Jubaeas around that have been planted in the 1980s. Nowadays it becomes even harder to tell because the climate is changeing and more unpredictable. I can't speak for the southwest of the Netherlands but I was surprised that you say they won't grow there longterm. Maybe it's just a little too wet was my assumption.

[kristof p]

11 hours ago, Arecaceus said:

Here we get a really bad winter every 10 years or so. 2009/2010 was crazy as well as was the one in 2021. I don't know if it requires 30+ years to say something is hardy. But I think there are some Jubaeas around that have been planted in the 1980s. Nowadays it becomes even harder to tell because the climate is changeing and more unpredictable. I can't speak for the southwest of the Netherlands but I was surprised that you say they won't grow there longterm. Maybe it's just a little too wet was my assumption.

What is longterm? If you take 30 years then there is a chance there will be a winter that will kill all palms except T. fortunei. I also thought that longterm only T. fortunei can be regarded as the only palm that will survive longterm but after seeing what dies in texas and florida for example then there too they need to protect some palms during those extreme winters so I do not count those extreme winters in anymore when it comes to cold hardiness. You just need to accept the fact that very rarely there is a killer winter and you will need to protect some things. If I have to do this once every 15/20 or maybe 30 years I can live with that. Most winters up here are Z9a with some winters even being 9b and some 8b avarage rainfall in the coastal region up here is around 700mm.  My Butia is not just surviving, it flowers profusely and has viable seeds. I have several offsprings growing of my Butia. Jubeae also does great, I have 2 big ones and one small one that germinated in the garden over 15 years ago and never saw any protection (it is sheltered underneath 3 big trachycarpus that gives it overhead protection). 

I think another factor that limits what you can grow is the intensity of the sun. This goes down the more you go north and I think some palmspecies just starve with the low sun intensity up north. Maybe this is why it is more dificult to grow palms like Butia in the more northern parts of the Netherlands? record high temperature right at the sea on the beach at my coast is 40°C!!!(Koksijde beach) I do not think coastal areas in holland get those kind of temperatures in summer

 

[kristof p]

12 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Some people try them here as well, and with protection during colder winters, they can make it. But when they get bigger, this becomes an issue of course.

I think one of the main problems is the duration of the cold. We don't have short cold snaps like they have on the East Coast of the US. When it gets cold here, it can stay cold sometimes for over a week. Also, the winter dampness doesn't help.

By long-term, I mean something like 30+ years. The last 10 winters were pretty mild over here, but it is better not to get fooled by that; these cold periods will return one day.

I get what you mean by longterm and you are right, there will be a big chance a killer winter will happen in that time that wil whipe out many palms. I used to think like that but after seeing what happens in places like texas and florida then there to there are not many species that can grow longterm. My Butia and Jubaea are much to big to give good protection during such a winter and the only thing I can do when there is such a winter again is to defoliate them myself and keep it warm with extra heat. If you only need to do this once every 15 or 20/30 years then they will be fine. I also think that they have reached a size that they maybe will survive such a winter but ofcourse will sustain a lot of damage.

[kristof p]

On 2/13/2025 at 3:22 AM, Swolte said:

Spot on, imo. 

I wonder if people tried Serenoa Repens in those areas with good drainage. These are very hardy and, my personal & unsystematic observation, grow more in late spring here in Texas (and not the hot summers, like Brahea/Sabals, etc...). I am sure they are faster with more consistent heat for 9+ months but they are slow regardless. I believe they have some at Kew Gardens in the UK, @UK_Palms?

How much patience do you have? 

Sereona survives our winters but hardly grow during summers. so they slowly decline over the years...... 

[Arecaceus]

3 hours ago, kristof p said:

What is longterm? If you take 30 years then there is a chance there will be a winter that will kill all palms except T. fortunei. I also thought that longterm only T. fortunei can be regarded as the only palm that will survive longterm but after seeing what dies in texas and florida for example then there too they need to protect some palms during those extreme winters so I do not count those extreme winters in anymore when it comes to cold hardiness. You just need to accept the fact that very rarely there is a killer winter and you will need to protect some things. If I have to do this once every 15/20 or maybe 30 years I can live with that. Most winters up here are Z9a with some winters even being 9b and some 8b avarage rainfall in the coastal region up here is around 700mm.  My Butia is not just surviving, it flowers profusely and has viable seeds. I have several offsprings growing of my Butia. Jubeae also does great, I have 2 big ones and one small one that germinated in the garden over 15 years ago and never saw any protection (it is sheltered underneath 3 big trachycarpus that gives it overhead protection). 

I think another factor that limits what you can grow is the intensity of the sun. This goes down the more you go north and I think some palmspecies just starve with the low sun intensity up north. Maybe this is why it is more dificult to grow palms like Butia in the more northern parts of the Netherlands? record high temperature right at the sea on the beach at my coast is 40°C!!!(Koksijde beach) I do not think coastal areas in holland get those kind of temperatures in summer

 

Yes right - my point was also just that it doesn't need 30 years to have an extreme winter. Here they come around every (circa) 10 years. We had ones in 2021/2010/1997/1985... . Most winters in my area are also 9a and even more 9b in recent years. The problem are the not so mild ones every once in a while. In extreme winters there always might be some deaths or severe damages but if most plants survive at least I consider them hardy. Small palms and ones not yet established are more sensitive but in 2010 even some native plants and other trees died. That is what happens to plants in nature as well and small palms in nature are usually protected by canopy or sitting in high grass for example. 

I have to disagree with solar intensity though - it's not the key factor. It's sunlight and temperature. There have been several threads on this forum and there was scientific proof that solar radiation isn't the factor. At our latitudes we benefit from much longer days and thus more sun light in the summer months than the south. I think it evens out as long as there is enough sun and warmth. Yearly precipitation is also only an indicator. Humidity comes in different shapes and forms. Some areas have constant rain spread throughout and some only have down pours. My point was only that I thought humidity might be the reason why the palms supposedly don't make it in the southwest Netherlands and that they rot. I was just confused because at least Jubaeas seem to be hardy enough to survive even the worst winters. Maybe it might also be the lack of heat. Idk about west Flanders but I also noticed that in spring and summer the Dutch coastline is often several degrees colder than here and it takes longer for 20°C days to arrive and heat is also more rare. Our met office defines a summers day at 25°C+ and a heat day at 30°C+, extreme heat at 38°C+ and I think this is pretty accurate for plants as well. But at the end of the day what grows grows. Time will always tell.

[Marco67]

16 hours ago, Arecaceus said:

Here we get a really bad winter every 10 years or so. 2009/2010 was crazy as well as was the one in 2021. I don't know if it requires 30+ years to say something is hardy. But I think there are some Jubaeas around that have been planted in the 1980s. Nowadays it becomes even harder to tell because the climate is changeing and more unpredictable. I can't speak for the southwest of the Netherlands but I was surprised that you say they won't grow there longterm. Maybe it's just a little too wet was my assumption.

"But I think there are some Jubaeas around that have been planted in the 1980s."

That would mean that they are 40 years in the ground unprotected. That would be quite remarkable, considering some Trachies didn't even survive the 80s. I would like to see that. I don't know if you have photos of these Jubaeas.

"I can't speak for the southwest of the Netherlands, but I was surprised that you say they won't grow there longterm."

And I am very surprised that things like Butia and Jubaea grow unprotected long-term in Düsseldorf. I don't think Düsseldorf is milder in the winter than coastal southwest Netherlands.

Again, people do grow them here but I am only saying that they need protection during the colder winters.

 

 

 

[Marco67]

5 hours ago, kristof p said:

What is longterm? If you take 30 years then there is a chance there will be a winter that will kill all palms except T. fortunei. I also thought that longterm only T. fortunei can be regarded as the only palm that will survive longterm but after seeing what dies in texas and florida for example then there too they need to protect some palms during those extreme winters so I do not count those extreme winters in anymore when it comes to cold hardiness. You just need to accept the fact that very rarely there is a killer winter and you will need to protect some things. If I have to do this once every 15/20 or maybe 30 years I can live with that. Most winters up here are Z9a with some winters even being 9b and some 8b avarage rainfall in the coastal region up here is around 700mm.  My Butia is not just surviving, it flowers profusely and has viable seeds. I have several offsprings growing of my Butia. Jubeae also does great, I have 2 big ones and one small one that germinated in the garden over 15 years ago and never saw any protection (it is sheltered underneath 3 big trachycarpus that gives it overhead protection). 

I think another factor that limits what you can grow is the intensity of the sun. This goes down the more you go north and I think some palmspecies just starve with the low sun intensity up north. Maybe this is why it is more dificult to grow palms like Butia in the more northern parts of the Netherlands? record high temperature right at the sea on the beach at my coast is 40°C!!!(Koksijde beach) I do not think coastal areas in holland get those kind of temperatures in summer

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the intensity of the sun, its simple damp very cold weather which kills them.

"What is longterm? If you take 30 years then there is a chance there will be a winter that will kill all palms except T. fortunei."

I have plotted below a list of winters here with temperatures of -9 °C and below. Also the lowest temperatures of the last winters to show that we are in a mild period. 

I think -9 °C is about the limit Butia and Jubaea can take under damp conditions. You can see that it's more than the occasional winter. Under these conditions, both species need serious protection.

"I also thought that longterm only T. fortunei can be regarded as the only palm that will survive longterm"

Basically, Trachycarpus is indeed the only palm you can plant here unprotected without running the risk of losing it. Again, I don't know what the conditions are in West Flanders I am just saying what is possible here.

1980 -10°C/1981 -11°C/1982 -12°C/1985 -16°C/1986 -14°C/1987 -14°C
1993 -9°C/1994 -9°C/1995 -11°C/1996 -11°C/1997 -14°C/1998 -9°C/1999 -12°C 
2001 -9°C/2003 -9°C/2004 -10°C/2005  -13°C/2009 -9°C/2010 -11°C 
2012 -17°C/2013 -13°C/2014 -4°C/2015 -5°C/2016 -7°C/2017 -7°C/2018 -8°C/2019 -7°C  
2020 -3°C/2021 -10°C/2022 -8.0/2023 -5.0/2024 -7.0