Scandinavian/North European Palms

[Arecaceus]

  On 2/22/2025 at 1:48 AM, Banana Belt said:

We have the exact same thing here in Brookings, Oregon.  We call it the Chetco Effect because it comes down the Chetco River from east to west and gets very hot before it spreads out into the ocean.  This wind can happen any day of the year even winter and be 100 KM/hour steady hot.  Once ten years ago the wind was 90 km/hour and 49 C, it was horrible, dried up everything, killed many plants.  Charles's Gas Laws V1/T1 = V2/T2, V - Volume, T - Temperature, so when volume of a gas is compressed like air coming down a mountain it heats up proportionally, I think.  Not all Chetco Effects or Foehn's are bad, some are mild and really nice in mid winter.  I call it a summer in winter and hence a "Banana Belt".

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Very very interesting. This sounds rather extreme. It's not like that here. But the mountains are also not that high. Usually just air warming up a bit while sinking down into our river valley.

[Enar]

You can try phoenix theophrasti, jubaea chilensis or mazari palm which I suspect like drier weather that is available in Norway or Sweden even though you have to protect it. Född i Sverige prova det och säg hur det går.

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 4:07 AM, Enar said:

You can try phoenix theophrasti, jubaea chilensis or mazari palm which I suspect like drier weather that is available in Norway or Sweden even though you have to protect it. Född i Sverige prova det och säg hur det går.

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The mazari palm is not suited for our northern climate. to damp and not hot enough to grow. they just decline in our climate and can not take a lot of cold when they have not gotten a long and hot season to grow.

[Mandos]

  On 2/22/2025 at 10:20 PM, Arecaceus said:

I guess by northern Europe you mean western? Because I don't think there has been for Northern Europe.

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Northern Europe, Western Europe - potato potato. As long as there are information from growers in wet winter climates, located where the summers are warm and not hot - im fine. Gives a better more realistic expectation and representation of what i can grow.

Thanks for the info! What kind of butias do you grow? Do you protect them? 

[Mandos]

  On 2/23/2025 at 4:07 AM, Enar said:

Född i Sverige prova det och säg hur det går.

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Kul! Var är du född?

  On 2/23/2025 at 5:25 AM, kristof p said:

they have not gotten a long and hot season to grow.

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This.

Even in the south of Sweden the growing season is very short. No hot summer days to be seen except when hot continental air from Russia blows over the Baltic. This rarely happens. Our summer days are temped around 20ºC/70F.   

@Banana Belt how does your queen palm fair with cool coastal Oregon summer days? Your jubaea most love it though. Do you think the high amount of sunshine and humid ocean air "makes up" for the lack of direct heat? 

Perhaps hot summer days are greatly exaggerated when combined with mild winters?

 

[Mandos]

  On 2/22/2025 at 8:38 PM, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

In the winter of 2022-23, they saw 3-5'F with a high one day of only 14'F. They had some damaged fronds but didn't look to bad (seems like I was 60 consecutive hours below freezing or 32'F) considering. 

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This makes me more than tempted to try trunking sabals in my climate. 

[Mandos]

Does anyone have experience with Livistonia Nitida?

Seems to be able to handle -7ºC/20F quite easy and grows quite fast. Even seedlings are supposedly very hardy

 

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:52 AM, Mandos said:

This makes me more than tempted to try trunking sabals in my climate. 

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It may be worth a try. I'm not sure of your weather in the summer but we have fairly long and hot summers, which are to the liking of sabal palms. I do know some folks grow them in the cooler Pacific Northwest U.S.  I wish you the best whatever you decide. 

[Mandos]

  On 2/23/2025 at 12:23 PM, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

It may be worth a try. I'm not sure of your weather in the summer but we have fairly long and hot summers, which are to the liking of sabal palms. I do know some folks grow them in the cooler Pacific Northwest U.S.  I wish you the best whatever you decide. 

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I'll look into it. We have approx 70F days from May to September. Barely hotter

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:52 AM, Mandos said:

This makes me more than tempted to try trunking sabals in my climate. 

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nope, the only sabal that grows in our climate are S. minor and brazorensis...S. palmetto survives but that's it. it hardly grows. I have planted a small one almost 20 years ago and it is just as big as I planted it. S. minor starts trunking now at the same age (from seed planted directly in the garden)

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 12:22 PM, Mandos said:

Does anyone have experience with Livistonia Nitida?

Seems to be able to handle -7ºC/20F quite easy and grows quite fast. Even seedlings are supposedly very hardy

 

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yes, I had L. decora, nitida and chinensis growing in the garden. L. chinensis is by far the hardiest and is the only one still growing in my garden. The leaves of L. nitida can take more frost then those of L. chinensis but the growingpoint of L. chinensis can take a lot more cold then L. nitida. I only protect my L. chinensis with some fleece when it is forecasted to go lower then -3°C....

[kristof p]

I took a drive to my garden this morning and took a few pics of my jubaeas, my Butia odorata and a cordyline......all plants were planted around 2007/2008....They all have grown a lot in that time

 

B. odorata with a large Chamaerops growing underneath it. My mom for scale...

[Mandos]

  On 2/23/2025 at 12:39 PM, kristof p said:

.S. palmetto survives but that's it. it hardly grows. I have planted a small one almost 20 years ago and it is just as big as I planted it.

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Seems almost unbelievable. Have you tried any other specimens, in order to rule out that your one perhaps may have been "bad"? Must be the lack of summer heat right? And yet Ghent summers are pretty warm for western Europe. Especially since the last couple of years.

How old is your l. chinensis? Guessing your -3°C is wet cold.

[Mandos]

  On 2/23/2025 at 12:52 PM, kristof p said:

My mom for scale...

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Is she 5m tall? 😄 Looks like spring has come a long way in Ghent!

Very nice touch with the chamaerops underneath the Butia. Did you protect any of these during winter? Like the one in 2010 

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 12:55 PM, Mandos said:

Seems almost unbelievable. Have you tried any other specimens, in order to rule out that your one perhaps may have been "bad"? Must be the lack of summer heat right? And yet Ghent summers are pretty warm for western Europe. Especially since the last couple of years.

How old is your l. chinensis? Guessing your -3°C is wet cold.

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Yes, I planted a trunking S. palmetto and S. mexicano but they lost old leaves faster then it could grow new ones so it is a no no...Maybe S. bermudana has a chance though. 

I live in Ghent but the garden is almost 70 km away to the west near the coast (it started with palms at the age of 20 when I still lived at home so most of my palms are in their garden hehe). We still have warm summers the last decade or so but you can not compare that to the sout east usa for example where it stays above 30 for months on end....

[kristof p]

Here is my L. chinensis. it was planted in 2006 but was protected with a greenhouse untill some 8 years ago....actually many times when it freezes here it is dry.  Snow is very rare but humidity is very high so frost is not so rare but it is planted in very proteced spot. The ground rarely freezes up there and I never have seen frost on it

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 12:58 PM, Mandos said:

Is she 5m tall? 😄 Looks like spring has come a long way in Ghent!

Very nice touch with the chamaerops underneath the Butia. Did you protect any of these during winter? Like the one in 2010 

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Yes, untill 2012 they were protected. I build an enclosure over the palms but no extra heat....it went down to -12°C inside one time. It killed a P. canarensis that was also inside this enclosure. But no protection since 2012

[Banana Belt]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:47 AM, Mandos said:

 how does your queen palm fair with cool coastal Oregon summer days? Your jubaea most love it though. Do you think the high amount of sunshine and humid ocean air "makes up" for the lack of direct heat? 

Perhaps hot summer days are greatly exaggerated when combined with mild winters?

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Good questions.  I don't think the Queen palm likes our climate that much.  It is 40 plus years old and about 1/2 to 1/4 the size it would be in Central to Southern California.  Our ocean off Oregon is cold year around about 10 C, and with west to east air movement it keeps the shoreline air cold and humid a low lying air mass called a Marine layer.  Land within 5 kilometers of the ocean stays cool 20 C under the influence of the ocean, whereas lands further east and more than 5 kilometers during summer is hot 40 C and more.  The Marine air next to the coast is like a low lying cool blanket which during summer creates constant fog.  This is the way it is along most of the Pacific Coast of North America where seasons can't be measured in temperatures but more in hours per day of daylight.  When during short periods of several days the air and wind moves from east to west, hot inland air blows from the east and can warm up the shoreline to 40 C, but this only happens once and a while.

Heat loving plants and palms don't really like our climate, but palms and plants like Jubaea, Fuchsia, hydrangea, Peas and any that don't like heat, grow very well.  Hours of direct sunshine even in cool air is helpful for heat loving plants and can compensate to some degree for lack of sustained higher air temperatures, depending of course on the plant species.  I have tried dozens of different types of tomatoes, and only found 1 or 2 that some years will grow but never very well.

There are probably many tricks one can use to boost the microclimate in any location, such as a reflective wall or windbreaker, pond, lake or river that will reflect sunlight up onto the land, bedrock that is dark and can adsorb suns heat and release it during the night, etc..

Hybrid Palms which give a combination of parent attributes or in some cases a synergy might be planted and do well where one or both would not.  One interesting hybrid which is becoming more common is the Sygrus X Jubaea which looks more like a Jubaea that a Queen but grows fast like a Queen and does well in hot humid climates where Jubaea won't.  Butia X Jubaea, or Butia X Sygrus, and many more are becoming more common available and perhaps after being tried in more areas new discoveries will be made. 

[Banana Belt]

This is an interesting article about hybrids.  It was written for the Northwest US, but could be used for Northwest Europe as well.  https://www.desertnorthwest.com/articles/cocoid_hybrids.html

[Arecaceus]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:35 AM, Mandos said:

Northern Europe, Western Europe - potato potato. As long as there are information from growers in wet winter climates, located where the summers are warm and not hot - im fine. Gives a better more realistic expectation and representation of what i can grow.

Thanks for the info! What kind of butias do you grow? Do you protect them? 

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It's not potato potato. To some plants vegetation periods are very important. Here in the west we have very long vegetation periods compared to further east or north. Spring arrives here way earlier and winter comes later. If you drive from Cologne to Berlin in spring you can literally see this. With plants flowering and pushing new leaves a lot earlier. Some plants don't care and I know what you mean by "gives a better more realistic expectation" but you shouldn't leave out that factor. It's the same with frost and ice days. It's not only the ultimate lows but also how much cold there is in general. That's why I'm saying you have to try for yourself but keep those factors in mind when reading experiences here on the forum. It depends on the palm and what they are willing to take in terms of cold, frost and humidity.
Also the summers are hardly to generalise either. Even within western Europe or the PNW. Btw many palms and plants don't even need too much heat to grow and can even slow down from it. It's worth reading about this in this forum. I would just browse the forums here and then take that information and see what you make out of it.

So far I don't protect them. B. odorata and B. yatay currently.

[Arecaceus]

@Mandos@kristof p 
So Sabals are grown here (even at our botanical garden) but I often don't know which they are. I never paid attention to them because I always found other palms more attractive. I have grown a S. xbrazzoriensis but it died and I guess that was my fault because of relocating and the fact that people in western Europe and PNW have grown them successfully. I also have a S. uresana which I also replanted twice and that stressed the plant quite a lot. Sabals ARE VERY ROOT SENSITIVE! I didn't know that at the time. S. uresana lost all its leaves in 2021 after a very cold winter event but came back in a record breaking cold and wet summer. As of recently I'm more interested in them and I planted out a seed grown S. causiarum @kristof p you probably meant that instead of S. bermudana? So far it's doing well but man those things are fast! Even as a seedling. For a Sabal they are very fast. Faster than T. fortunei for example.

I'm also growing a L. nitida and I forgot that I have a L. chinesis as well (under canopy) I have to check on it but so far I can confirm that even as a seedling nitida is very hardy. Has taken -5°C without any visible damage but I think @kristof p is right that they are not as bud hardy as L. chinensis. I haven't have had them long enough to tell and I don't know if anyone in my area is growing these.

@Mandos You kind of mentioned what I talked about in my post above. Long growing seasons and decent summer temps are not to be left out but not as equally important to different species. Our med office defines a summer's day by a temp of at least 25°C for example. I also wouldn't compare your zone pushing experiences too much to the south eastern US. It makes more sense to look at other climates like the Mediterranean or the north American west coast. Other than just palms in my garden Mediterranean and New Zealandic? plants seem to be the best exotic growing plants I have. Asia also has a lot to offer.

BTW are there no other Scandinavian growers here on this forum? Would be nice to have some input on this.

[Arecaceus]

  On 2/23/2025 at 2:21 PM, Banana Belt said:

This is an interesting article about hybrids.  It was written for the Northwest US, but could be used for Northwest Europe as well.  https://www.desertnorthwest.com/articles/cocoid_hybrids.html

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Thanks I bookmarked it. 😂

[Arecaceus]

  On 2/23/2025 at 12:55 PM, Mandos said:

Seems almost unbelievable. Have you tried any other specimens, in order to rule out that your one perhaps may have been "bad"? Must be the lack of summer heat right? And yet Ghent summers are pretty warm for western Europe. Especially since the last couple of years.

How old is your l. chinensis? Guessing your -3°C is wet cold.

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I have another thing to add to the Sabals. From what I've read on palmtalk. Sabals need very warm nights to grow vigorously but S. palmettos are slow growers in general. Even in Florida. Most big specimens in gardens are getting dug out from nature and then planted there.

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 3:55 PM, Arecaceus said:

S. causiarum @kristof p you probably meant that instead of S. bermudana?

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haha, no, but you are right about S. causiarum. I hear some good experiences in colder climates with S. causiarum but I never have tried one out.  

Another palm that grows surprisingly well in our climate is B. edulis. They sustain some minor damage (around -5ish) on some leaves in most winters but grow fast enough to look good again in summer. It's been a long time since I have given it any protection

Also a well established B. armata is no problem in most winters. Sadly my big B. armata seems to suffer from boron deficiency I think. Last year it started to grow real weird. Just like you see in some pictures of palms with boron deficiency. It's sad because it was starting to get real huge and always looked pristine up untill last year. But in my opinion they are hardier then C. humilis!

[Arecaceus]

  On 2/23/2025 at 4:13 PM, kristof p said:

haha, no, but you are right about S. causiarum. I hear some good experiences in colder climates with S. causiarum but I never have tried one out.  

Another palm that grows surprisingly well in our climate is B. edulis. They sustain some minor damage (around -5ish) on some leaves in most winters but grow fast enough to look good again in summer. It's been a long time since I have given it any protection

Also a well established B. armata is no problem in most winters. Sadly my big B. armata seems to suffer from boron deficiency I think. Last year it started to grow real weird. Just like you see in some pictures of palms with boron deficiency. It's sad because it was starting to get real huge and always looked pristine up untill last year. But in my opinion they are hardier then C. humilis!

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So S. bermudana is a good choice? I'm not sure anymore but I thought it is not so cold hardy.

Wow! B. edulis is a beautiful palm! I always thought about getting one. But lack of space and also quite expensive. And yes! B. armata is also a good option. I have one and I've seen a couple growing here as well. Very rare though. Hardier than C. humilis?! That would be quite crazy but I mean they are desert palms after all. They also don't seem too sensitive to humid winters. I have some seedlings of B. dulcis. People say that they are slow growing at first and frost tender but others say the opposite. So far they survived frosts in a pot even as strap leaf seedlings and one potted one seems quite fast growing for Brahea in a pot. Or maybe that fast growing one was B. super silver. Not sure anymore.

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 4:50 PM, Arecaceus said:

Hardier than C. humilis?!

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My B. armata is planted close to the house in a warm spot but in 2010 and 2012 it definitely went down to -10°C/-12°C at this spot for a few times. This Brahea was protected with a roof to keep it dry and it survived those winters just fine while I lost many Chamaerops in those winters. The Chamaerops got the same protection.

2 of Chamaerops (a humilis and a vulcano) that were in the enclosure together with my Butia survived,  My other surviving Chamaerops is a Chamaerops cerifera who whas at that time a seedling and was buried underneath some leaves. 

Brahea armata can not resprout from the roots so ultimately Chamaerops is hardier but it will take more cold before the stems die  

[Arecaceus]

  On 2/23/2025 at 5:43 PM, kristof p said:

My B. armata is planted close to the house in a warm spot but in 2010 and 2012 it definitely went down to -10°C/-12°C at this spot for a few times. This Brahea was protected with a roof to keep it dry and it survived those winters just fine while I lost many Chamaerops in those winters. The Chamaerops got the same protection.

2 of Chamaerops (a humilis and a vulcano) that were in the enclosure together with my Butia survived,  My other surviving Chamaerops is a Chamaerops cerifera who whas at that time a seedling and was buried underneath some leaves. 

Brahea armata can not resprout from the roots so ultimately Chamaerops is hardier but it will take more cold before the stems die  

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Ah OK! I see. My Brahea is not sheltered but It also didn't go through 2010. I photographed one here that is also growing close to the house (Not mine):


My first Chamaerops was planted in 2011 and it looked like this in 2012:


I don't think 2012 was as cold here as it was for you. 2010 and 2021 were the last two severe winters here.

[kristof p]

  On 2/23/2025 at 6:10 PM, Arecaceus said:

I don't think 2012 was as cold here as it was for you. 2010 and 2021 were the last two severe winters here.

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Or you have a C. humilis that can take some more cold then many of his brothers and sisters

When I look at the weather data I could find for the 2010 and 2012 winter for Dusseldorf airport and another station in Dusseldorf and compare it to the only station nearby my garden with data from those winters (Ostend airport) then both winters were colder in Dusseldorf. The ultimate low is similar but it went down to those temps more and with more subzero days and lower subzero daytime maxima in Dusseldorf.  Strange thing is the cold in 2012 up here was in Januari and in Dusseldorf it was in februari???? 

On average Dusseldorf is quite colder then Ostend during the wintermonths.

 

This is for Ghent, the city I live in but almost 70km away from the sea and my garden. Still not bad and hotter during the summermonths, definitely inside the city.

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

@kristof p Interesting climate. What are the record lows in these areas you have listed? I don't have much knowledge about European zones and climates. That's a very temperate mild climate though it looks like.  Lucky for you guys. All we know in the continental US is a roller coaster up and down climate. 

[Arecaceus]

  On 2/24/2025 at 7:20 AM, kristof p said:

Or you have a C. humilis that can take some more cold then many of his brothers and sisters

When I look at the weather data I could find for the 2010 and 2012 winter for Dusseldorf airport and another station in Dusseldorf and compare it to the only station nearby my garden with data from those winters (Ostend airport) then both winters were colder in Dusseldorf. The ultimate low is similar but it went down to those temps more and with more subzero days and lower subzero daytime maxima in Dusseldorf.  Strange thing is the cold in 2012 up here was in Januari and in Dusseldorf it was in februari???? 

On average Dusseldorf is quite colder then Ostend during the wintermonths.

 

This is for Ghent, the city I live in but almost 70km away from the sea and my garden. Still not bad and hotter during the summermonths, definitely inside the city.

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Düsseldorf has 4 weather stations of which only 1 has climate data available. The chart above is faulty. I found it on the website you took it from and it states the period of which they took it from. I found another one that differs and yet another one that differs but now I just looked at the data recordings form those years and those are the recorded average lows of the airport station for that period:


And highs:


Maybe the Chamaerops is hardier. And look how flawless it looks. I don't recall 2012 as being an extremely cold winter. Maybe I'm wrong. But the airport is (almost) always much colder than temperatures in the city or my garden. The southern parts of the city (except for city centre) are also milder down to the north of Cologne in general. That's also where the Jubaeas are planted I posted above. The ultimate low I recorded in 2010 was -13°C and where the Jubaeas are planted -13°C/-14°C. There are no official stations in the area though. But you're right at least for the airport our met office lists 2012 as an 8a winter. But -13°C was definitely the coldest I have measured before -10°C in 2021. I know that for sure.

[Arecaceus]

@kristof p Scratch that! 😂 I've been scratching my head because of this and I suddenly remembered that I had a spreadsheet where I wrote down the lowest and highest temps in my garden starting in 2006. I actually found it but sadly it is incomplete and also 2006-08 were inaccuartely measured (somewhat). 2012-2013 are missing. But I also noticed and now remembered that 2010 wasn't where I recorded -13°C. That was in 2009 not 10. In 2010 the lowest was -9°C. But as I remember 2010 felt much worse because it was the second bad winter in a row and the freeze was more prolonged and wetter. In 2009 it only dipped for a few days at night. It might be that because of the bad winters 2009/2010 I didn't feel like 2012 was that bad. I didn't find any pictures of damaged plants from 2012 but I also didn't take many photos that year. Though all plants look completely unphased despite the possible cold we had.

[Axel Amsterdam]

I believe i have the largest collection of pictures of palms and subtropicals in the Dutch climate and this offers a different perspective. It’s not about general climate zones mixed with some anecdotal experiences from a tiny group of growers. It really is about looking at the large survival numbers in various localities and then you will find exceptions that keep going for years unprotected (or sometimes after being protected for the first couple of years). Once established (3 to 5 years) the hardiness of a palm changes drastically. Other factors include more obvious factors like being in a large city, south exposure surrounded by stone, proximity of water etc. But also individual hardiness characteristics, like identical twin CIDP’s of which only 1 survived the 2018 winter and 1 keeps going.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Unprotected butia in Maastricht since 2016

[Axel Amsterdam]

Unprotected garden in Zeeland since 5 years

[Axel Amsterdam]

CIDP near Amsterdam airport, defoliated in 2018 but perfect again, picture from february

[Axel Amsterdam]

Amsterdam city has been nearly frostfree this winter, picture from yesterday

 

[Mandos]

  On 3/2/2025 at 7:15 AM, Axel Amsterdam said:

Unprotected butia in Maastricht since 2016

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Very pretty. 

Is there any good reliable place to buy odoratas online? Preferably not seeds..

[Marco67]

  On 3/2/2025 at 7:15 AM, Axel Amsterdam said:

Unprotected butia in Maastricht since 2016

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  On 3/2/2025 at 7:13 AM, Axel Amsterdam said:

I believe i have the largest collection of pictures of palms and subtropicals in the Dutch climate and this offers a different perspective. It’s not about general climate zones mixed with some anecdotal experiences from a tiny group of growers. It really is about looking at the large survival numbers in various localities and then you will find exceptions that keep going for years unprotected (or sometimes after being protected for the first couple of years). Once established (3 to 5 years) the hardiness of a palm changes drastically. Other factors include more obvious factors like being in a large city, south exposure surrounded by stone, proximity of water etc. But also individual hardiness characteristics, like identical twin CIDP’s of which only 1 survived the 2018 winter and 1 keeps going.

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Those are nice photos, thanks Axel. Especially the Butia Odorato is pretty awesome. A microclimate can indeed make a big difference, although I think a winter like 2012 would probably have finished it.

Zeeland probably has the best potential to try something else than Trachycarpus. With the western part being a 9a zone.

People are in general still not so used to planting palms in their garden and most gardens are still very traditional. Even a Trachycarpus is a pretty rare sight, although you see them more and more. Also things like Olive trees and Oleanders are becoming more common.

[Axel Amsterdam]

  On 2/15/2025 at 2:31 PM, Arecaceus said:

No I also haven't seen them in person. I only remember on a forum seeing someone having Jubaeas planted then decades ago (this is already 10+ years ago) and I'm pretty sure some botanical or public garden (not Düsseldorf but maybe Cologne or Bonn or somewhere else) had one growing outside since the 1970s or 80s. If they were protected somewhat in the worst winters I can't tell you.

The only ones I've seen and have posted about are plantings from 20+ years ago and they're supposedly always unprotected.


Yes I also didn't think Düsseldorf is milder in winter than the coastal Netherlands but that's why I was surprised. Also most palms here are planted in urban areas and the differences between temperatures of lows in winter and highs in summer are very signifcant. Sometimes it's just 1-2°C but often it's even 5°C. There is also less wind and drier air. You notice it immediately when leaving the urban zones. But I guess we just have a different definition of hardy. Like I said experiences can be different. Kristof p says C. vulcano is hardier for him. For me C. humilis green form does better. I also haven't experienced stems dieing off but I can't tell it didn't happen to someone in my area sometime.

Also to get back to the point @Mandos as you can see you have to try for yourself. Opinions and experiences always vary as well as expectations.

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The Leverkusen palms were indeed planted in 2004 and got passive protection (no additional heat) in cold winters. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

  On 3/3/2025 at 7:38 PM, Marco67 said:

 

Those are nice photos, thanks Axel. Especially the Butia Odorato is pretty awesome. A microclimate can indeed make a big difference, although I think a winter like 2012 would probably have finished it.

Zeeland probably has the best potential to try something else than Trachycarpus. With the western part being a 9a zone.

People are in general still not so used to planting palms in their garden and most gardens are still very traditional. Even a Trachycarpus is a pretty rare sight, although you see them more and more. Also things like Olive trees and Oleanders are becoming more common.

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Thanks Marco, but this is outdated info. I know thousands of fortunei’s and hundreds of chamaerops. Olive trees are so common here they are almost old fashioned and oleanders of 6 to 10 feet high are a regular sight around Amsterdam.