Palm tree options in a 9a-9b zone (northern greece)

[dimitriskedikogloy]

So i really want to turn my garden into a very green garden with palm trees and other palm like plants but i fear that all my money will go to waste if the plants end up dying so im asking for some help as to the options of plants i can plant. So here are the averages but the past years the lowest it got is probably -3 here. There is a nursery with queen palms very close to my but they dont look very healthy but they did survive the last 4 winters.Furthermore my garden is somewhat protected as you can see in the image and is facing the south east.I dont want to plant the casual canarians and filiferas as they are way too common and dont give me that tropical feel.im thiking about washingtonia robustas,queen palms or even try the king palms but i need some help about placement and protection i will add some images so you can help me

[Phoenikakias]

I think Queens would be rather marginal in your climate. But you can try at least the most cold tolerant ecotype from Parana.  Are Butia and Jubaea not exotic enough according to your taste? There can be also other fan palms, way more exotic looking than a Washingtonia, whichay adapt to your climate like spp of Sabal. Another option are the hybrids between Butiinae genera, but they are quite expensive.

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  On 3/11/2025 at 10:39 AM, Phoenikakias said:

I think Queens would be rather marginal in your climate. But you can try at least the most cold tolerant ecotype from Parana.  Are Butia and Jubaea not exotic enough according to your taste? There can be also other fan palms, way more exotic looking than a Washingtonia, whichay adapt to your climate like spp of Sabal. Another option are the hybrids between Butiinae genera, but they are quite expensive.

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I can show you the queens here and to be honest I don’t like fan palms only exception for me is the washingtonia because of its tall slender trunk and the fact that the windmill leaves curve down also I like robelinis but they are too small for my liking I know there is a hybrid between it and the Canarian which looks amazing but it’s impossible to find 

[Harry’s Palms]

That Syagrus looks like it survived winter OK . Is that in the ground? I agree with the Butia but it takes so long for them to get tall enough to provide shade. Roebelini get 10’ plus here , but it also takes a while to get there. The Syagrus , or Queen , is the best for speed of growth if they are happy. Prolonged cold temps could do them in though. Harry

This Butia O. is over 20 years old from seedling 

Sabal Riverside , a good amount of shade from this one

Livistona Chinensis , very slow growing . Same age as the others!

Brahea Edulis , or Guadeloupe Palm , at 20+ years old.

These are some of the more cold hardy palms I have in zone 10a 

 Livistona Australis , much faster than the Chinensis , this one has only been in the ground two years from a 5 gallon pot . Also has a smaller trunk than Chinensis , and more divided , spoked , fronds . Not sure how cold hardy .

[Mazat]

  On 3/11/2025 at 10:08 AM, dimitriskedikogloy said:

Ich möchte meinen Garten wirklich in einen sehr grünen Garten mit Palmen und anderen palmenähnlichen Pflanzen verwandeln, aber ich fürchte, dass mein ganzes Geld umsonst ist, wenn die Pflanzen sterben, also bitte ich um Hilfe bei der Auswahl der Pflanzen, die ich pflanzen kann. Hier sind also die Durchschnittswerte, aber in den letzten Jahren lag der niedrigste Wert hier wahrscheinlich bei -3. Ganz in meiner Nähe gibt es eine Baumschule mit Königspalmen, aber sie sehen nicht sehr gesund aus, haben aber die letzten 4 Winter überlebt. Außerdem ist mein Garten, wie Sie auf dem Bild sehen können, einigermaßen geschützt und nach Südosten ausgerichtet. Ich möchte keine gewöhnlichen Kanarenpalmen und Filiferas pflanzen, da sie viel zu häufig sind und mir nicht dieses tropische Gefühl geben. Ich denke über Washingtonia Robustas, Königspalmen oder sogar Königspalmen nach, aber ich brauche Hilfe bei der Platzierung und dem Schutz. Ich werde einige Bilder hinzufügen, damit Sie mir helfen können

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they want to look at the budget, which is important. it's just that everything takes time and patience to thrive. the CIPD you mentioned is one of those that thrive very well in your area and yet although there are many as you say, it is very exotic and above all it seems to survive the winters well with you. because you are looking at the budget, I would just accept some suggestions that are made to you here and then just put on exotics that thrive well. and you live near the sea, practically every type of palm tree brings an exotic flair with it, neutrally speaking. we look at the budget here ourselves and think that's good too. a healthy mix of tried and tested species that thrive well near you and a few that have been suggested but don't break the budget, that's how we would do it. good luck with it and i think you'll be surprised how well you like it 😃

 

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  On 3/11/2025 at 12:55 PM, Harry’s Palms said:

That Syagrus looks like it survived winter OK . Is that in the ground? I agree with the Butia but it takes so long for them to get tall enough to provide shade. Roebelini get 10’ plus here , but it also takes a while to get there. The Syagrus , or Queen , is the best for speed of growth if they are happy. Prolonged cold temps could do them in though. Harry

This Butia O. is over 20 years old from seedling 

Sabal Riverside , a good amount of shade from this one

Livistona Chinensis , very slow growing . Same age as the others!

Brahea Edulis , or Guadeloupe Palm , at 20+ years old.

These are some of the more cold hardy palms I have in zone 10a 

 Livistona Australis , much faster than the Chinensis , this one has only been in the ground two years from a 5 gallon pot . Also has a smaller trunk than Chinensis , and more divided , spoked , fronds . Not sure how cold hardy .

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thanks for the help harry the issue is that i dont like desserty looking palms especially fan palms plus i really really love that carribean beach vibe with coconut trees so im trying to find that and somehow make my garden feel like that.The mexican fan palm does sort of give me that feel it becomes thin and tall and leaves drip down,also yes the queen palm i really really like i will 100% try it but i have heard its hard to take care of due to deficiencies.So yeah what im looking for is palms with slender trunks but since the thickness of the trunk has a corelation with the hardiness i think i might be asking for too much. Also i dont think the queen palm is in the ground since its up for sale.

[Phoenikakias]

It is in first line a matter of personal taste, yet I can not imagine how a desert palm like Washingtonia can provide Carribean ambience! Have you ever seen a well grown Sabal beside minor? Trust me, it creates the tropical effect you are seeking multiple times, than Washingtonia.

[SeanK]

I don't like trachycarpus. Hairy trunk, fan palm, just ugly. Oh wait I can only grow S.palmetto and T.fortunei. Hmmm.

Looks like you have not much space, either. If your yard were mine, I would plant Livistona and P.roebellini.  The Pigmy Date I would place strategically so I could protect it easily.

Start with a map of the yard. Think about plants that are green year-round that flower at different times. Perhaps a Loquat and S.minor. 

Less is More.

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  On 3/11/2025 at 10:05 PM, Phoenikakias said:

It is in first line a matter of personal taste, yet I can not imagine how a desert palm like Washingtonia can provide Carribean ambience! Have you ever seen a well grown Sabal beside minor? Trust me, it creates the tropical effect you are seeking multiple times, than Washingtonia.

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Idk the sabal just seems very dry to me the washingtonia has bright green leaves and when the trunk is shaved it looks very tropical especially if it’s LA level thin and tall now the filifera yes it seems very deserty but the robusta grows in more humid invotoments I think 

[SeanK]

Arenga engleri is probably safe, too.

[Than]

 

I feel you. I also want the lush tropical vibes in a 9a/9b climate. . and I also don't like fan palms (I don't have any). I like some desert-reminding palms a lot though, such as dactyliphera (majestic!) and sylvestris but I won't plant any, also because of the beetle..

I would definitely focus on Syagrus. They may struggle but they may make it, you don't know unless you try. You may even try an Archontophoenix cunnighamiana in shade. Again, it may not make it but when mature they can get few degrees below zero, so why not try? They are not too expensive, you can get a meter tall one for 150 euro or so. 

Arenga engleri will def add the vibes you are looking for, but it grows sloooooowly. 

If you don't go below zero, you may also try kentia? Do they survive outdoors there? 

Rhapis should also do fine there, they don't seem to mind the cold. Also chmaedoreas?

I think that you should not only focus on palms to create the vibes. Tropical beaches look stunning when the palms are surrounded by other lush plants with big leaves. Some banana trees, colocasias, gingers like alpinia zerumbet,  heliconia schiedeana, a magnolia..?

 

[Phoenikakias]

  On 3/11/2025 at 11:15 PM, dimitriskedikogloy said:

Idk the sabal just seems very dry to me the washingtonia has bright green leaves and when the trunk is shaved it looks very tropical especially if it’s LA level thin and tall now the filifera yes it seems very deserty but the robusta grows in more humid invotoments I think 

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I would think over twice before I resort to Washingtonia. It grows fast, it grows tall and seeds profusely.  A clean trunk may seem exotic but it is not self-cleaning. Or before it turns to latter, it forms first an unsightly long skirt of old leaves, which there is nothing tropical in. And 10 m above ground (this is still a low height for the Washingtonia standards) make removal of skirt extremely difficult, periculous and expensive.

Do you find any tropical effect on those uncleaned trunks?

Anyway if you're looking for a fan palm growing moderately to fast with thin, naked trunk and green foliage with droopy segment tips, you'd better go after a Livistona decora.

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  On 3/12/2025 at 6:27 AM, Than said:

 

I feel you. I also want the lush tropical vibes in a 9a/9b climate. . and I also don't like fan palms (I don't have any). I like some desert-reminding palms a lot though, such as dactyliphera (majestic!) and sylvestris but I won't plant any, also because of the beetle..

I would definitely focus on Syagrus. They may struggle but they may make it, you don't know unless you try. You may even try an Archontophoenix cunnighamiana in shade. Again, it may not make it but when mature they can get few degrees below zero, so why not try? They are not too expensive, you can get a meter tall one for 150 euro or so. 

Arenga engleri will def add the vibes you are looking for, but it grows sloooooowly. 

If you don't go below zero, you may also try kentia? Do they survive outdoors there? 

Rhapis should also do fine there, they don't seem to mind the cold. Also chmaedoreas?

I think that you should not only focus on palms to create the vibes. Tropical beaches look stunning when the palms are surrounded by other lush plants with big leaves. Some banana trees, colocasias, gingers like alpinia zerumbet,  heliconia schiedeana, a magnolia..?

 

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yeah true the date palm is very beautiful.Also i see a lot of travelers palms in southern greece and i think they migh have a chance here aswell.About kentias it does get below freezing barely though i would say and it happens about 3 to 4 days a year where we get brief dips there also are extremes tho in 2017 we had as low as -5 but i know that everything is possible i can take my plants indoors if that ever happens when they are young and i can provide good protection but at summer we do get 30-34 so kentias might struggle from the heat.about the king palms i could only find alexandre and not cunninghamia in thessaloniki so if you could help me with where i could find some i would really appreceate it.By the way i was exploring google maps for palms when i found a hotel in naflpion with cunninghamias and im very very impressed since its also a 9b zone and they look very healthy not to mention they are right nexto to the beach. here is the link .       https://www.google.com/maps/place/SEAFOS+Luxury+Resort+%26+Spa/@37.5164949,22.9801047,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNApSS8dJO3P_4WztFBO4shUp7dSYF5X3rRq6BY!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNApSS8dJO3P_4WztFBO4shUp7dSYF5X3rRq6BY%3Dw203-h136-k-no!7i8273!8i5555!4m10!3m9!1s0x149ff2a2d4845ed1:0x58f6b55a4fa60ec4!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d37.516418!4d22.9799994!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11y604bdyc?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  On 3/12/2025 at 7:29 AM, Phoenikakias said:

I would think over twice before I resort to Washingtonia. It grows fast, it grows tall and seeds profusely.  A clean trunk may seem exotic but it is not self-cleaning. Or before it turns to latter, it forms first an unsightly long skirt of old leaves, which there is nothing tropical in. And 10 m above ground (this is still a low height for the Washingtonia standards) make removal of skirt extremely difficult, periculous and expensive.

Do you find any tropical effect on those uncleaned trunks?

Anyway if you're looking for a fan palm growing moderately to fast with thin, naked trunk and green foliage with droopy segment tips, you'd better go after a Livistona decora.

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yeah true im only talking about shaven trunks which yeah will be expensive but im willing to do it also where i live i havent yet seen a washingtonia taller than 8-10 meters so idk if the variability here is mixed with filiferas but we do not seem to have these extremely thin robustas like there are in nafplion crete etc... But yeah the full shaven tall thin robusta like my profile picture personally does give me a tropical feel

[Than]

  On 3/12/2025 at 8:25 AM, dimitriskedikogloy said:

yeah true the date palm is very beautiful.Also i see a lot of travelers palms in southern greece and i think they migh have a chance here aswell.About kentias it does get below freezing barely though i would say and it happens about 3 to 4 days a year where we get brief dips there also are extremes tho in 2017 we had as low as -5 but i know that everything is possible i can take my plants indoors if that ever happens when they are young and i can provide good protection but at summer we do get 30-34 so kentias might struggle from the heat.about the king palms i could only find alexandre and not cunninghamia in thessaloniki so if you could help me with where i could find some i would really appreceate it.By the way i was exploring google maps for palms when i found a hotel in naflpion with cunninghamias and im very very impressed since its also a 9b zone and they look very healthy not to mention they are right nexto to the beach. here is the link .       https://www.google.com/maps/place/SEAFOS+Luxury+Resort+%26+Spa/@37.5164949,22.9801047,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNApSS8dJO3P_4WztFBO4shUp7dSYF5X3rRq6BY!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNApSS8dJO3P_4WztFBO4shUp7dSYF5X3rRq6BY%3Dw203-h136-k-no!7i8273!8i5555!4m10!3m9!1s0x149ff2a2d4845ed1:0x58f6b55a4fa60ec4!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d37.516418!4d22.9799994!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11y604bdyc?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

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Cunninghamianas are sold in many nurseries here.. although to be fair I cannot always tell them from alexandrae. Perhaps you should study the differences first and then go shopping to some big nursery nearby. Remember that it needs shade and plenty of water.

I would advise you against comparing your climate to that of Nafplio; unfortunately the winter there is much milder, especially near the sea. But as I said, you can only be sure once you try. 

Our climate is very similar in terms of minimums. Even though I am in Messinia, I am away from the sea and the microclimate of the house is quite cool. There is also a creek nearby which makes the temperatures even lower and increases humidity. I saw -1C this winter. If you are willing to protect your plants during cold spells...

Another piece of advice: any tree can look tropical with a vine growing all over the trunk and the branches! Although this is more of a jungle vibe, not beach vibe.

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  On 3/12/2025 at 9:29 AM, Than said:

Cunninghamianas are sold in many nurseries here.. although to be fair I cannot always tell them from alexandrae. Perhaps you should study the differences first and then go shopping to some big nursery nearby. Remember that it needs shade and plenty of water.

I would advise you against comparing your climate to that of Nafplio; unfortunately the winter there is much milder, especially near the sea. But as I said, you can only be sure once you try. 

Our climate is very similar in terms of minimums. Even though I am in Messinia, I am away from the sea and the microclimate of the house is quite cool. There is also a creek nearby which makes the temperatures even lower and increases humidity. I saw -1C this winter. If you are willing to protect your plants during cold spells...

Another piece of advice: any tree can look tropical with a vine growing all over the trunk and the branches! Although this is more of a jungle vibe, not beach vibe.

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my family also owns a house next to the beach in chalkidiki in yerakini where i think its a clear 9b zone and since the house is 20 meters from the sea i think the climate could be very similar to the one of nafplion.The only nursery with archontophoenixes i have found is a one in crete so if you know any nurseries with online shops i would appreaceate it.

[Than]

  On 3/12/2025 at 9:37 AM, dimitriskedikogloy said:

my family also owns a house next to the beach in chalkidiki in yerakini where i think its a clear 9b zone and since the house is 20 meters from the sea i think the climate could be very similar to the one of nafplion.The only nursery with archontophoenixes i have found is a one in crete so if you know any nurseries with online shops i would appreaceate it.

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greenartstore.gr 

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  On 3/12/2025 at 9:44 AM, Than said:

greenartstore.gr 

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thank you

[Fusca]

  On 3/12/2025 at 9:29 AM, Than said:

Cunninghamianas are sold in many nurseries here.. although to be fair I cannot always tell them from alexandrae.

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Once they get a few meters of height they're easier to distinguish.   Cunninghamiana will have green leaf underside while alexandrae will be silvery.  And cunninghamiana has ramenta (red fuzz) along petiole bases.

[Janni]

I recommend to start with the regular palms. After establishing a canopy you could try the more tender ones.  However, I strongly doubt that any archontophoenix can survive more than two winters there. 

If you want to see how you can create a tropical look with more or less ordinary and easily available plants, have a look at this camping site: https://maps.app.goo.gl/EG7dFdHbbZrfwdzZ6?g_st=com.google.maps.preview.copy 

[Patrick]

What about Livistona decora? Still too much fan? 

They do well in your temperatures.

[Janni]

By the way: my family has also a small property at the beach of Nea Triglia. I am observing the weather very closely and my hope to be able to grow really tropical palms there is declining year by year. Maybe some butia/syagrus hybrids would be best. 

[Than]

  14 hours ago, Janni said:

I recommend to start with the regular palms. After establishing a canopy you could try the more tender ones.  However, I strongly doubt that any archontophoenix can survive more than two winters there. 

If you want to see how you can create a tropical look with more or less ordinary and easily available plants, have a look at this camping site: https://maps.app.goo.gl/EG7dFdHbbZrfwdzZ6?g_st=com.google.maps.preview.copy 

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Wow they have done a good job indeed at that camping! It does look tropical even though the main canopy is made by common mulberry trees! My only objection would be that the canopy would disappear in the winter, but that's not an issue if you don't have tender plants below. Plus, where it is, they probably get no frost and no temperatures below 0 C.

It's difficult to find an evergreen fast growing tree in our area that would create a year-round canopy fast.

You think archontophoenices there would decline due to the minimums or the maximums in Thessaloniki?

[Janni]

  7 hours ago, Than said:

… they probably get no frost and no temperatures below 0 …

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You are right. They don‘t have much trouble with sub-zero temperatures there. Even if it drops down to 0 or slightly below, the temperature bounces back to around 8 to 10 or much higher during the following day. In northern coastal regions you can have a couple of days in a row, when temps do not go above 2 to 5 C at the day and drop below 0 every night.
And that is only one of the differences of the winter climate between the southern and the northern half of coastal greece. In Messini a sub- or near-zero event is relatively rare, plus the day temps are higher. There are many more differences that allow you to grow lots of stuff there, what you can‘t grow in the north. 

[Than]

  5 hours ago, Janni said:

You are right. They don‘t have much trouble with sub-zero temperatures there. Even if it drops down to 0 or slightly below, the temperature bounces back to around 8 to 10 or much higher during the following day. In northern coastal regions you can have a couple of days in a row, when temps do not go above 2 to 5 C at the day and drop below 0 every night.
And that is only one of the differences of the winter climate between the southern and the northern half of coastal greece. In Messini a sub- or near-zero event is relatively rare, plus the day temps are higher. There are many more differences that allow you to grow lots of stuff there, what you can‘t grow in the north. 

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I doubt it ever goes down to zero on coastal Argolis. Even in Rafina I never saw zero; lowest ever was +1C. And you're right, it's the maxima that are too low in the north. Here, even when it goes down to -1, next day will be at least 10 C. This winter we only had a handful of days with maximums less than 10C. This is because the coldest days are when the skies are clear. 

You made me think now that perhaps I over-invested in sub-tropical trees and plants. Perhaps I can create the exotic ambience using more local plants, with some tropicals and palms here and there, like in that camping. Food for thought...

 

[Ryan Wonka]

  On 3/12/2025 at 8:25 AM, dimitriskedikogloy said:

yeah true the date palm is very beautiful.Also i see a lot of travelers palms in southern greece and i think they migh have a chance here aswell.About kentias it does get below freezing barely though i would say and it happens about 3 to 4 days a year where we get brief dips there also are extremes tho in 2017 we had as low as -5 but i know that everything is possible i can take my plants indoors if that ever happens when they are young and i can provide good protection but at summer we do get 30-34 so kentias might struggle from the heat.about the king palms i could only find alexandre and not cunninghamia in thessaloniki so if you could help me with where i could find some i would really appreceate it.By the way i was exploring google maps for palms when i found a hotel in naflpion with cunninghamias and im very very impressed since its also a 9b zone and they look very healthy not to mention they are right nexto to the beach. here is the link .       https://www.google.com/maps/place/SEAFOS+Luxury+Resort+%26+Spa/@37.5164949,22.9801047,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNApSS8dJO3P_4WztFBO4shUp7dSYF5X3rRq6BY!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNApSS8dJO3P_4WztFBO4shUp7dSYF5X3rRq6BY%3Dw203-h136-k-no!7i8273!8i5555!4m10!3m9!1s0x149ff2a2d4845ed1:0x58f6b55a4fa60ec4!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d37.516418!4d22.9799994!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11y604bdyc?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

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i recommand getting palms from coldpalm.nl. they have many rear ones and reasonable prices. They have archonopheonix cunninghamiana at 90cm for 35euros. they also have livistona chinensis, australis... many more. they delivers all over eu. Arrived quicky to ireland. Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  5 hours ago, Janni said:

You are right. They don‘t have much trouble with sub-zero temperatures there. Even if it drops down to 0 or slightly below, the temperature bounces back to around 8 to 10 or much higher during the following day. In northern coastal regions you can have a couple of days in a row, when temps do not go above 2 to 5 C at the day and drop below 0 every night.
And that is only one of the differences of the winter climate between the southern and the northern half of coastal greece. In Messini a sub- or near-zero event is relatively rare, plus the day temps are higher. There are many more differences that allow you to grow lots of stuff there, what you can‘t grow in the north. 

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where i live the average in the coldest part of the winter is 8c but yes there are a few days where it doesnt go above 5 but i think that if i keep the trees when they are little indoors for these days they will be find and palms when they grow they tend to get hardier and when they are finally planted in the ground i beleve i can use protection in form of lights wrapped around the tree etc...

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  2 hours ago, dimitriskedikogloy said:

where i live the average in the coldest part of the winter is 8c but yes there are a few days where it doesnt go above 5 but i think that if i keep the trees when they are little indoors for these days they will be find and palms when they grow they tend to get hardier and when they are finally planted in the ground i beleve i can use protection in form of lights wrapped around the tree etc...

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This is the lowest we got this winter

[Phoenikakias]

  2 hours ago, dimitriskedikogloy said:

This is the lowest we got this winter

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If such lows and frequency of them are th3 norm, in the sense that a killing freeze occurs every 30+ years, you may try both Queen and Piccabeen. BUT, and this is a great one but, you receive snow, which settles frequently, you will have to count with a cumulative effect next to cold. As a rule of thumb you have to deduct at least another two degrees from actual temperature in order to estimate future damage.

[dimitriskedikogloy]

  1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

If such lows and frequency of them are th3 norm, in the sense that a killing freeze occurs every 30+ years, you may try both Queen and Piccabeen. BUT, and this is a great one but, you receive snow, which settles frequently, you will have to count with a cumulative effect next to cold. As a rule of thumb you have to deduct at least another two degrees from actual temperature in order to estimate future damage.

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this year we has snow but it did not settle but in 2017 we had a bad freeze we had settled snow for 3 days straight but as crazy as it sounds there is more frequent snow in athens than here

[Phoenikakias]

This is a list of z9 suitable palms. What do you not see? Syagrus romanzoffiana and Phoenix roebelenii and of course whichever Archontophoenix among them! Look around you, can you see in the hood established specimens of the above spp. And if Archontophoenix is still relatively unknown in Greece, the other two have become since long staple palms in Athens, so if they can survive up there, other people before you would have given a successful try.