Adding hybrid Cycas x taitoluta (Cycas revoluta x taitungensis) to my Mountain to the Sea/Tropical garden in NC zones 7b/8a

[CG Miller]

I am in the Raleigh NC area zone 8a in year 3 of developing a 'Mountain to the Sea/Tropical Garden over approx. 1.4acres. Any advice for a semi-newbie gardener who doesn't mind pushing warm and cold zonal boundaries to the limit,  would be appreciated.

I'm adding a hybrid Cycas x taitoluta (Cycas revoluta x taitungensis) that was recently obtained from Tony Avent's Plant Delights Nursery See pics below approx. 6mo after going from 4in pot to 2gal container in fall 2024, overwintered inside under grow lights, pics are in March 2025. In the warm months (April to early Nov) I plan to place the container in part-sun in my garden and will overwinter in an unheated basement late Nov - March. In a few years, after a season or two after being up-potted to 3 or 5 gal pot I plan to plant it in the ground.  I am growing similar sized Cycas panzhihuaensis and will place in landscape accordingly as done with C. taitoluta. I also have a couple of 5 gal Sagos (Cycas revoluta) thriving in containers; one will go in the landscape in a protected position with the use of supplemental heat from incandescent Christmas lights in the coldest months of winter, the other revoluta will remain in a container and be overwintered in an rather large unheated basement together with several tender Oleander,  Macho ferns (Nephrolepis biserrata), Nephrolepis obliterata (Kimberly Queen Fern) and Ravenea rivularis, (Majesty palm) that are all in containers.

Among the palms I have recently obtained are Rhapidophyllum hystrix (Needle Palm),   Trachycarpus fortunei 'Wagnerianus' (Chusan Hardy Windmill Palm), Chamaerops humilis var. argentea (Blue Mediterranean Fan Palm),  Sabal minor 'Birmingham',  and Sabal palmetto 'Fat Boy".  I've just picked up a couple of Callistemon 'Little John' Bottlebrush shrubs (zone 8-12,  Schefflera delavayi  and S. taiwaniana, Pittosporum adaphniphylloides, and Pittosporum "Sappy'. I hope to soon add Sabal minor var. louisiana, Sabal x brazoriensis, Sabal palmetto 'Bald Head'',  various Hedychium coronarium (Ginger Lilly) and possibly Washingtonia robusta and/or Butia odorata to my growing tropical collection.

My Daphniphyllum macropodum and Alpinia zerumbet ‘Variegata’ (Variegated Shell Ginger) have just gone through their first winter in the ground.  The Daphniphyllum m. are thriving. I added winter protection to my four Variegated Shell Gingers by using a thick blanket of oak leaves; though it died to the ground there is new growth is beginning to show in mid-March. It will be interesting to see how strong it will come back as the weather warms or if it will slowly fade after several years as others have reported in our region.

Other established tropical-like plants in my garden landscape include Nerium oleander 'Mathilde Ferrier' (Hardy Yellow Oleander), Trachycarpus fortunei (Windmill Palm),  Sabal minor (straight species), Musa basjoo (Sichuan Hardy Banana) and various Colocasia (Elephant Ear Plant); all have well-established hardiness in our 7b/8a NC climate.

 

Cycas x taitoluta _ Taitoluta Hybrid Sago Palm.pdf

[Merlyn]

@CG Miller welcome to PalmTalk!  I have a bunch of Cycas here, including several hybrids.  Supposedly Taitungensis and Revoluta are considered the same species now, though I noted some places are not following the latest published paper.  Personally I think they are different enough in physical size (Taitungensis being about 2x as broad) to warrant being different species.  But I'm just a hobbyist and not a specialist or geneticist.

Another one you might consider is Guizhouensis, which is one of my favorite Cycas.  It's a bit broader leaved and more "drapey" than Revoluta, and IIRC it's substantially tougher.  I bought some from a PT member, Jubaea_James760.

Diannanensis is also supposed to be pretty hardy, surviving defoliation at 17F in TX.  ScottW or Ed Brown may have some seedlings of Diannanensis or Rev x Diannanensis.

[CG Miller]

Cycas taitungensis and revoluta differ in hardiness, size and habit. I'll have to track down the recent publications you mention and see if genetics support claims they are the same species. I am a retired biomedical researcher with a background in molecular biology so I look forward to reading these papers. I would think Tony Avent, Director of Juniper Level Botanic Garden, owner of Plant Delights Nursery would have some basis for designating taitoluta a hybrid of taitungensis x revoluta and may have already done the genetics to back up his claims. 

Thanks for the leads on Cycas guizhouensis and C. diannanensis, I'll check them out!

A large section of my zone 8a garden where I plan to add more tropical-like plants is hardwood bottomland bordered by woodland slopes with ephemeral streams that drain into an adjacent pond. Soil in the bottom is constantly wet to moist even in times of drought. Exposures range from full-shade to dappled light-shade with some small 'openings' that may receive full morning sun for up to 4 hours. There are a number of native ferns, a good population of native Jack-in-the-pulpit Arisaema triphyllum, our native Switch Cane 'bamboo'  Arundinaria tecta is also plentiful in this section of my garden. I found a grower of Florida Doghobble (Agarista Populifolia) and plan to create a few thickets. I have a few  Leucothoe axillaris (Coastal Doghobble) and Fetterbush (Lyonia lucida) in pots waiting to be planted there. 

Suggestions of tropical-like plants that do not need full sun would be appreciated.

[TropicsEnjoyer]

I wouldn’t be able to tell that plant from a regular revoluta haha. But I guess when you have many different species the subtle differences become more apparent. Pretty cool anyhow, especially since you see less interest in cycas hybrids because encephs are all the rage.

[Merlyn]

@CG Miller this was the thread I saw here with links to several studies:

I skimmed the studies but am skeptical that they are the same species.  The Taitungensis at Fairchild are dramatically different from the Revoluta all over Central Fl.  I guess it's possible that some of the imported "Taitungensis" are actually Taiwaniana.  Stranger things have happened.  Sort of like how all the "Queen Sagos" imported to FL were claimed to be Circinalis, but turned out to be Thouarsii. 

I don't have a specific opinion on it, other than being a bit skeptical of the above paper.  And though I have plenty of respect for Tony Avent (and have bought a bunch of agaves from Plant Delights) I don't know that he's a geneticist or a specialist in Cycas.  I'm not either, I just grow stuff!  

[CG Miller]

I'll reach out to Tony Avent and staff to get clarification on the taitungensis vs revoluta question, there is a top notch taxonomist on staff at Juniper Level Botanic Garden that probably knows the story here, if they don't know then they very likely can point me in the right direction.

[Gallop]

Revoluta and Taitungensis are different from my observations. Taitungensis female cones do not open; they must be pulled open to be artificially pollinated. I've missed pollination on my females on a few occasions by not knowing they were ready.  You look for the cone to become soft,  peel back the cone scales and pollinate. Rev females, when ready fully open.  All my hybrids with Tat are much larger plants compared to hybrids with Rev. There have been many cycads that have been lumped together incorrectly over the years. Many are being sorted out at the moment. 

[Swolte]

Hey @CG Miller, welcome to Palmtalk. Love to see such ambition! This is how I started about 6 years ago and I am still enjoying it! Open a thread somewhere where we can see your progress on the garden! Do you have any pics? Sounds like you have some areas with height differences, sun and shade, and water 'features' already!

I honestly don't know where to start. I guess something I wish I learned earlier, given you also seek a tropical feel, is to start creating the microclimate for those types of plants to survive. That means some evergreen shrubs to protect from the winds but also some overstory (Loblollies, live oaks, etc....). Perhaps not part of the microclimate, but soil drainage and nutrition capacity may also be critical for certain plants to do well. The earlier you can start with that, the better, and you won't make mistakes you'll regret later! 

Because the latest zone designations are quite poor to indicate what plants can grow, what were the ultimate lows of the last 10 years in your yard? Unless you want to protect every year, I am worried some of the choices may be a bit too optimistic...  Oh and I really miss the word Yucca.

[CG Miller]

Thanks. Here's an overview . Raleigh NC is on the eastern boundary of the piedmont not far from the sandy coastal plain. There are surface deposits 40 miles east that hold fossilized shark teeth. NC is a transition zone where native plants of the south have their most northern populations and microclimates that allow northern plants to establish their southern most populations,  Our average climate runs on the mild side but we also have single digit winter lows (degF) every few years, average lows in the teens with rare excursions into the 0degF and below territory.  In summer we can count on extended periods of 100degF highs. Our high summer day/night heat/humidity excludes many plants that thrive in the US Pacific Northwest that are also considered zone 7b/8a. Rain can come in deluges, interspersed with long periods of drought, and with climate change our weather has become more erratic.  Considering our climate and the shallow topsoil over red clay, they say if you can  garden in piedmont NC you can garden anywhere.

 

I am in a slightly cooler and moist microclimate being mostly mature hardwood forest (oaks, maple, poplar, hickory) with some mature pines. Understory includes young hardwoods,  rhododendron, Sourwood, American Beech, Dogwood, Sweet gum,  Redbud, etc.  My garden is approx. 1.4 acres, oriented east to west, sunrise in back, sunset in front, approx, 125ft wide and 550ft deep, elevation drops approx, 35 ft. from front to back. there is significant dry shade, a good section of moist to wet bottomland. We have well over 1000 ft of wooded borders and sunny edges, and I plan to build around 2000ft. of trails that wind through the garden. On the northern border of the garden we have a long line of mature evergreens (camellia, hollies,  magnolia, cleyera, illicium ) and on the southern border I have just planted a long line of camellias with osmanthus along about 125ft under mature hardwoods.  I plan to plant hardy tropicals in the ground and keep tender tropicals in containers that can be overwintered in my unheated full-basement  or inside the main house. The basement is what's called a 'daylight basement', meaning it opens to the back garden, there is a two-car garage one one end that gives easy access to bring plants in/out during winter.

[Gallop]

If your willing to invest your time in adding winter protection, you’ll be able to push the envelope with cycads. I really like ceratozamia they look tropical and add color to your garden. 

My cold protection consists of 1” pvc cold frames covered with 6mil greenhouse film. 

1st pic was in January.

2nd picture was today, plants are starting to flush.

[CG Miller]

Wow! Thanks for the inspiration. Where are you located/what zone? Your back garden looks to have an exposure and slope similar to mine. I'll post some pics in a few weeks when things are leafing out.

I'll take a look at ceratozamia. By coincidence I was just looking at the related Coontie palm (Zamia integrifolia), its not that showy but should be marginally hardy unprotected in the ground here in 8a. I'm willing to go to some lengths to provide winter protection. Here in central NC the winter's can have days/weeks that are sunny and warm enough that venting would be needed in a greenhouse with full sun. I've been thinking about building one attached to my 'walk-out' basement that would get morning sun and pm shade so overheating would not be such an an issue, also it would captures heat/cooling as part of the house 'envelope'. 

I've been overwintering so many plants inside my house and basement that my wife is pushing me to get a greenhouse, haha, so I must be doing something right!

Here's one diy greenhouse design by Bonnie Plants https://bonnieplants.com/blogs/diy-garden-projects/build-fold-down-greenhouse that is a fold-down. 

But I'm not sure if I would be willing to go as far as @newyorktropicalgarden9364 (see New York Tropical Garden YouTube channel on the Hudson River in upstate NY  https://www.youtube.com/@newyorktropicalgarden9364). But in a another year I may be building heated enclosures around each palm, I have my eyes on a couple of Washingtonia robusta. 

I've just started growing the Australian Tree Fern (Cyathea cooperi 'Brentwood') in pots and they are taking off.  So next winter I'll need some good overwintering space.

 

[frankcar1965]

I have a taitungensis that coned for the first time year before ladt, if it is the same species as revoluta it must be a subspecies or different form, IT GREW FAST, and coned in ten years, it also went through 0F in the big freeze with defoliation of course. No push last year, but it's pushing right now.

The other pic is my Cycas x taitoluta going into its second season, this is exciting, I don't know how many of these have been done.

I have six fairly rare crosses in the ground but unfortunately I can't find the tags! And another five in pots for now.

20250323_191245.heic 20250323_191039.heic

[frankcar1965]

Are those pics showing up? I'm not seeing them.

[Merlyn]

@frankcar1965 the forum doesn't handle the HEIC format, just regular JPG.

[Gallop]

Cycas panzhihuaensis x Cycas taitungensis is a nice hybrid. Nice color while flushing. Planted a group of these in garden with 1” caudex a little over 4yrs ago.