Exhaustive list of all 11a zone climates in Greece

[southathens]

Well Kasos HNMS station reigns as its expected.

Closely followed of course by Kastellorizo, Psari Forada, Rhodes Port and Gavdos (even though the mean abs. min in Gavdos should be considerably lower than the 6.33C presented on the table below since we don't have data from the epic 2022 and 2021 cold snaps). The data below come from official public stations in Greece and for their entire time series, with the exceptions of Kasos and Karpathos HNMS stations for which I used a full 30 year POR (data for Kasos HNMS available from 1989 and for Karpathos HNMS from 1990). Also both of these stations are the only Stevenson Screen stations on the list. All the rest are Davis fan aspirated stations.

Note Hydra island with the northernmost 11a zone in the Med sea as its located at 37.2 N latitude. I haven't found any other 11a in the Med so far north for the corresponding period. If you know of any station that might be N of Hydra and still manage an 11a zone please let me know to research it!Also note that 2 more stations from HNMS, namely Gavdos HNMS and Paleochora HNMS almost certainly are also 11a but I haven't had time to take confirmation from HNMS and that's why they are not on the list.

[southathens]

@Phoenikakias @Victor G. @Janni @mlovecan @Stelios @Stelios A @Aceraceae @Foxpalms @mirandamavrogianni

[pietropuccio]

Hi, very interesting, but how much can this help in choosing palms or other tropicals to grow? I fear that without taking into account other factors that depend on the specificity of the Mediterranean climate, different for example from that of Forida or Cuba, the literal application of the Usda method could lead to disappointment if you use the data on the hardiness of individual species that are largely derived from the experience of growing in those areas.

[southathens]

  On 3/26/2025 at 6:08 PM, pietropuccio said:

Hi, very interesting, but how much can this help in choosing palms or other tropicals to grow? I fear that without taking into account other factors that depend on the specificity of the Mediterranean climate, different for example from that of Forida or Cuba, the literal application of the Usda method could lead to disappointment if you use the data on the hardiness of individual species that are largely derived from the experience of growing in those areas.

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You are right USDA zones alone are not a good indicator of whether for instance cocos can survive in these Greek locations.

So far the only outdoors surviving cocos we have in Greece are the ones from Lindos which mlovecan has planted. And I think he had a hard time managing them. Its trial and error in Med locations to manage and grow a coco. Unfortunately not many Greeks have a passion or an interest with tropical plants so we might never learn in which of the above locations cocos might survive...

[Phoenikakias]

  On 3/26/2025 at 6:08 PM, pietropuccio said:

Hi, very interesting, but how much can this help in choosing palms or other tropicals to grow? I fear that without taking into account other factors that depend on the specificity of the Mediterranean climate, different for example from that of Forida or Cuba, the literal application of the Usda method could lead to disappointment if you use the data on the hardiness of individual species that are largely derived from the experience of growing in those areas.

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It is not only daily or average highs. Much more crucial is the fluctuation curve throughout the day. In Sharm El Sheikh for example, which borders to the Tropic of Cancer, in April temp reached 30 C from about 9:00 am till dusk. Of course lack of adequate water combined with the poor, sandy soil presented a very serious obstacle for widespread use of tropical palms. 

[southathens]

  On 3/26/2025 at 8:15 PM, Phoenikakias said:

It is not only daily or average highs. Much more crucial is the fluctuation curve throughout the day. In Sharm El Sheikh for example, which borders to the Tropic of Cancer, in April temp reached 30 C from about 9:00 am till dusk. Of course lack of adequate water combined with the poor, sandy soil presented a very serious obstacle for widespread use of tropical palms. 

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I think the problem with cocos cultivation in Greece's 11a zones is probably down to 2 major factors

1. Winter highs are not that great. Max in Jan is 18C in Psari Forada, South Crete. That's the highest we can find.

2. Brutal summer heat. Especially in Lindos these cocos would need constant irrigation.

But let's say we manage and plant cocos in Kasos which is very mild during the summer and extremely mild in winter minimums. Kasos is so arid year round that constant irrigation would be needed, especially in the summer. Kasos is almost bordering a desert climate. I see it has now dropped to 247 mm of mean annual precipitation. 

But the problem of winter warmth (in terms of maximums) might be of more concern. Cocos would need some protection the first few winters if they were to survive in Kasos. 

[Foxpalms]

  On 3/27/2025 at 9:40 AM, southathens said:

I think the problem with cocos cultivation in Greece's 11a zones is probably down to 2 major factors

1. Winter highs are not that great. Max in Jan is 18C in Psari Forada, South Crete. That's the highest we can find.

2. Brutal summer heat. Especially in Lindos these cocos would need constant irrigation.

But let's say we manage and plant cocos in Kasos which is very mild during the summer and extremely mild in winter minimums. Kasos is so arid year round that constant irrigation would be needed, especially in the summer. Kasos is almost bordering a desert climate. I see it has now dropped to 247 mm of mean annual precipitation. 

But the problem of winter warmth (in terms of maximums) might be of more concern. Cocos would need some protection the first few winters if they were to survive in Kasos. 

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The main thing would be finding someone interested in trying them in the best microclimates on one of the islands. Then placing the coconut palms near the south facing wall of the house as that will easily add a few degrees more during the day and 1c more at night.  Finding someone who also happens to live inside one of the larger urban areas on these islands would also add another 1c at night. Finding someone to try them on one of the islands is one thing, but in a good microclimate on ones of the islands will make all the difference. 

[southathens]

  On 3/27/2025 at 3:02 PM, Foxpalms said:

The main thing would be finding someone interested in trying them in the best microclimates on one of the islands. Then placing the coconut palms near the south facing wall of the house as that will easily add a few degrees more during the day and 1c more at night.  Finding someone who also happens to live inside one of the larger urban areas on these islands would also add another 1c at night. Finding someone to try them on one of the islands is one thing, but in a good microclimate on ones of the islands will make all the difference. 

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Yeah well we even tried a call through the local press a few years back if you remember.

No luck...No one is really interested or at least we could not reach them...

[pietropuccio]

I don't want to discourage anyone and it's right to always try, I've been doing it for 65 years, first in pot, then in an open field. The place in the world that has been experimenting with the cultivation of exotic tropical species for the longest time is Florida, if we think that there are, today, in the Mediterranean zones comparable to zones 11a or 10b of Florida, we are wrong, at most there are zones similar to 10a, in which can survive, with protection and with difficulty, species that in the analogous area of Florida live without particular problems.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pietropuccio/albums/with/72177720322877228

[southathens]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:08 AM, pietropuccio said:

I don't want to discourage anyone and it's right to always try, I've been doing it for 65 years, first in pot, then in an open field. The place in the world that has been experimenting with the cultivation of exotic tropical species for the longest time is Florida, if we think that there are, today, in the Mediterranean zones comparable to zones 11a or 10b of Florida, we are wrong, at most there are zones similar to 10a, in which can survive, with protection and with difficulty, species that in the analogous area of Florida live without particular problems.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pietropuccio/albums/with/72177720322877228

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Thank you! Your experience is highly valued. However If I am correct your personal experience is in Palermo which is typically not as mild during the winter as the Greek locations above. 

So I think we are still at a trial and error stage for these extremely mild locations in Greece. So far the cocos in Lindos seem to have survived 3-4 years. I am also waiting for mlovecan's update on his Lindos cocos.

[pietropuccio]

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:04 PM, southathens said:

 

So I think we are still at a trial and error stage for these extremely mild locations in Greece. So far the cocos in Lindos seem to have survived 3-4 years. I am also waiting for mlovecan's update on his Lindos cocos.

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It is precisely the experience of Lindos, among many others, where the Cocos survives with difficulty, which demonstrates that in the Mediterranean area there are no zones 11a, 10b and even fully 10a, where the Cocos lives and bears fruit.

[southathens]

  On 3/28/2025 at 5:59 PM, pietropuccio said:

It is precisely the experience of Lindos, among many others, where the Cocos survives with difficulty, which demonstrates that in the Mediterranean area there are no zones 11a, 10b and even fully 10a, where the Cocos lives and bears fruit.

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Strictly meteorologically speaking, the threshold for an 11a zone based on the USDA criteria of over 4.4C mean of absolute minimums is met in all of these areas. We already have Kasos and Karpathos HNMS stations with 30 years of data showing a clear 11a zone. 

The thing is that the zones alone are not a perfect predictor of cocos survival in areas like the Med. That is true. 

[southathens]

  On 3/25/2025 at 11:37 PM, southathens said:

Well Kasos HNMS station reigns as its expected.

Closely followed of course by Kastellorizo, Psari Forada, Rhodes Port and Gavdos (even though the mean abs. min in Gavdos should be considerably lower than the 6.33C presented on the table below since we don't have data from the epic 2022 and 2021 cold snaps). The data below come from official public stations in Greece and for their entire time series, with the exceptions of Kasos and Karpathos HNMS stations for which I used a full 30 year POR (data for Kasos HNMS available from 1989 and for Karpathos HNMS from 1990). Also both of these stations are the only Stevenson Screen stations on the list. All the rest are Davis fan aspirated stations.

Note Hydra island with the northernmost 11a zone in the Med sea as its located at 37.2 N latitude. I haven't found any other 11a in the Med so far north for the corresponding period. If you know of any station that might be N of Hydra and still manage an 11a zone please let me know to research it!Also note that 2 more stations from HNMS, namely Gavdos HNMS and Paleochora HNMS almost certainly are also 11a but I haven't had time to take confirmation from HNMS and that's why they are not on the list.

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oops!

Forgot Rhodes AP as well!

[bubba]

I would love to see Cocos nucifera in the Mediterranean! If it was possible, I believe we would see tangible results.

The USDA system is flawed. The best results for Cocos nucifera is occurring in So. Cal around latitude 34 degrees north. As much as I want success in the Mediterranean, I believe the limitation's occur and result from the high latitude. Please prove me wrong!

 

 

[Mazat]

  On 3/25/2025 at 11:37 PM, southathens said:

Well Kasos HNMS station reigns as its expected.

Closely followed of course by Kastellorizo, Psari Forada, Rhodes Port and Gavdos (even though the mean abs. min in Gavdos should be considerably lower than the 6.33C presented on the table below since we don't have data from the epic 2022 and 2021 cold snaps). The data below come from official public stations in Greece and for their entire time series, with the exceptions of Kasos and Karpathos HNMS stations for which I used a full 30 year POR (data for Kasos HNMS available from 1989 and for Karpathos HNMS from 1990). Also both of these stations are the only Stevenson Screen stations on the list. All the rest are Davis fan aspirated stations.

Note Hydra island with the northernmost 11a zone in the Med sea as its located at 37.2 N latitude. I haven't found any other 11a in the Med so far north for the corresponding period. If you know of any station that might be N of Hydra and still manage an 11a zone please let me know to research it!Also note that 2 more stations from HNMS, namely Gavdos HNMS and Paleochora HNMS almost certainly are also 11a but I haven't had time to take confirmation from HNMS and that's why they are not on the list.

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very interesting list.

[Mazat]

these places in the list are very good for testing.
What makes the coconut so challenging is that if just one piece of the puzzle of the conditions it needs is missing, long-term successful growth is already at risk.
this is not meant to be a precocious remark on my part.
we here are also among those who try again and again with all the protective measures and adaptations that it takes for a palm tree or other exotic plants to thrive successfully. so let's move on to the next attempts.

 

[Mazat]

  On 3/26/2025 at 8:15 PM, Phoenikakias said:

It is not only daily or average highs. Much more crucial is the fluctuation curve throughout the day. In Sharm El Sheikh for example, which borders to the Tropic of Cancer, in April temp reached 30 C from about 9:00 am till dusk. Of course lack of adequate water combined with the poor, sandy soil presented a very serious obstacle for widespread use of tropical palms. 

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an excellent example. i have also been there and the conditions are exactly as you have described.

[Aceraceae]

The promising temperature numbers for Haifa, a city on a peninsula in the eastern Mediterranian, may be a little innacurate, as they match or exceed the winter temps given for Alexandria, Egypt in the southern Mediterranean. 

It gives very mild winter temps, with a January average of 15 C/59 F or so, which is a likely minimum average temp needed for Cocos, especially in a high latitude climate where the rain is also in the cold season. The rainy season there is also much stronger than the south coast or the Greek islands. The mean annual minimums and record lows are also shown as very similar, but another climate box for a higher inland location at Haifa university, gives significantly cooler numbers all around. 

These possibly inflated numbers also boost the given annual average temp to 21 C/ 70 F, another Cocos minimum, in the Wikipedia climate box chart. 

Are there any known legitimate attempts to cultivate Cocos in either of these more readily zone 11, milder and hotter locations? with irrigation in the summer being a must. 

 

[Aceraceae]

14 C mean temp in January that is, for both locations, which seems too generous for Haifa, and or low for Alexandria. The annual temp is purported to be slightly higher in Haifa than Alexandria, which seems inaccurate. Both are on the Mediterranean but Alexandria is 100 miles further south and also bordering an intense inland desert, and has much less winter rain. 

[southathens]

  On 3/30/2025 at 2:19 PM, bubba said:

I would love to see Cocos nucifera in the Mediterranean! If it was possible, I believe we would see tangible results.

The USDA system is flawed. The best results for Cocos nucifera is occurring in So. Cal around latitude 34 degrees north. As much as I want success in the Mediterranean, I believe the limitation's occur and result from the high latitude. Please prove me wrong!

 

 

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We already have outdoors surviving cocos in Lindos, Rhodes.

Check mlovecan's posts!

[bubba]

What latitude and how large?

[southathens]

  On 4/4/2025 at 11:56 AM, bubba said:

What latitude and how large?

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36N 

According to mlovecan they must be around 3-4 years old now.

Check his posts for all the details and photos of the cocos.