Why do some people hate palms?

[VA Jeff]

I am venting after leaving a tree planning session for the local city/town.  There are four native palm species here, but the (insert not kind word) people want to place a moratorium on planting palms on public land.  Even palms paid for by private funding already allocated to be planted would be forbidden from being planted.  The excuses were absurd.  

"Well, even native palms wouldn't be in their native habitats in all the parks and wetlands,  palms can cost as much as $4,000 per tree per year to take care of, tree canopy is everything and palms don't provide much canopy or absorb enough water in floods, etc.  Not one good argument.  I spent a good bit of time debating with them.  Granted they were very polite and respectful, but one guy voting against palms "informed me" that palmettoes were not actually real palm trees.

How do you fight stupid?  Part of the argument was that even Miami outlawed public palm plantings.  Anyone have similar experiences?  What solutions has anyone achieved to correct such ignorance?

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Here in Nuevo León, Mexico people call all types of palm trees "non-native". They don't know we have 5 palm species native to our state (Sabal mexicana, Sabal minor (Unknown variety), Brahea dulcis, Brahea decumbens and Brahea moorei. I've already had to show that to two of my biology teachers who said palm trees aren't native.

[TropicsEnjoyer]

You can’t win an argument against stupid people, because in their mind you’re the stupid one. Honestly just accept the loss, as long as you have palms of your own you will always be satisfied. And who said Miami banned public palms? I think there are more palms than normal trees in miami 😂😂.

[flplantguy]

The lack of education on plants is rampant and part of why there are people that celebrate the destruction of nuture. Palms are one part of the whole and should be considered for spaces if they meet the needs. The only blanket ban should be on invasive species, and planting of exotics in nature preserves where natives should be. In the city where these types live is not nature, and they are not doing any favors to the environment no matter how many native docot trees they plant in their monoculture neighborhoods and parks. If they want to save the nature for native life they can move back to wherever they moved here from and let the native trees stay put. That would have a real impact on the issues they claim to be concerned about, but its really more like the militant vegans with their noses so far in the air they cant see in front of them- an ego trip.  Next time your there bring in a horticulturist or plant biologist (or physiologist if you can get one) to help. I tell people it takes all types of plants to create a balanced garden, ecosystem, or design for some beachfront wacko to enjoy, so shutting out the whole palm group in every sitaution is assinine. Ask them to ban turf grasses while they are at it, those are more wasteful and bad for the environement than a palm.  And maybe stop going to the golf course while they are at it🙄.  Sorry for the rant lol

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Another reason why they hate palms is because they don't provide the shade a tree does. People only want shade, the government and some citizens have been mass planting some type of Quercus spp. ( that I don't even know if it's native or not because i've never seen it in the wild) in public spaces here, what they don't know is that mass planting a single species isn't healthy at all for the environment because a disease or insect infestation could wipe a big part of the population or it could expand massively due to the excess of seeds, taking the space of other native plants.

[Chester B]

50 minutes ago, VA Jeff said:

I am venting after leaving a tree planning session for the local city/town.  There are four native palm species here, but the (insert not kind word) people want to place a moratorium on planting palms on public land.  Even palms paid for by private funding already allocated to be planted would be forbidden from being planted.  The excuses were absurd.  

"Well, even native palms wouldn't be in their native habitats in all the parks and wetlands,  palms can cost as much as $4,000 per tree per year to take care of, tree canopy is everything and palms don't provide much canopy or absorb enough water in floods, etc.  Not one good argument.  I spent a good bit of time debating with them.  Granted they were very polite and respectful, but one guy voting against palms "informed me" that palmettoes were not actually real palm trees.

How do you fight stupid?  Part of the argument was that even Miami outlawed public palm plantings.  Anyone have similar experiences?  What solutions has anyone achieved to correct such ignorance?

And I am sure they approved more Bradford Pear plantings too...

You just can't fix stupid.  Having a balanced and diverse tree canopy is just common sense.  $4,000/year, yeah right.  How much do all the trees that grow into the power lines cost???

[happypalms]

The old saying you can’t put brains in statues. Just let them heat up the planet with there concrete jungles and overcrowded cities any shade is better than no shade.

[BayAndroid]

Ah yes, simply cannot wait to put in more "parking lot sycamores", everyone's favorite... 

 

 

[aabell]

I think this is an artifact of a deeply ingrained cultural bias, in the US and Europe, towards being cold and miserable. For thousands of years, surviving winter was the main thing anyone was worried about. Even today, winter is a time for noble chores like chopping wood, shoveling snow, and battling depression, while summer is a time for silly indulgences like going to the beach, sun bathing, and air conditioning. (the larger historical context for this weird morality about cold vs. warm climates I think is fairly obvious as well, but not necessary to get into here.)

 

So while the sunbelt has exploded in population since the invention of air conditioning, the overall culture, especially in the suburbs and HOAs, is dominated by this puritan, northern mindset. There is a bizarre Stockholm syndrome phenomenon where many people claim to "miss snow", while they choose to live in a climate where they run the AC 300 days a year. They want to have their cake and eat it too: they try to grow fruit that can't produce without enough chill hours, they insist on planting hostas and hydrangeas that melt in the relentless heat. 

 

People who are trapped in this mindset will never embrace palms. Palms truly are emblematic of something "other". Sabal palmetto is a native plant in your area, but what it really represents is the northernmost outpost of a group that primarily exists in the Caribbean and Mexico. Of course you and I think this is very cool but it's also exactly why these types aren't interested. 

 

All of that to say, the ill-informed factoids about how "palms aren't really trees, palms are grass" (not true) or "palms don't create shade" are just excuses for people who refuse to embrace the fact that they are living in a hot subtropical climate. Hopefully it's an attitude that will change with time.

[Chester B]

Some valid points here.  I can't say that I disagree with you on any of them.

[Darold Petty]

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

Bertrand Russell

This applies to the political sphere, also.  

 

[Mazat]

13 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

I am venting after leaving a tree planning session for the local city/town.  There are four native palm species here, but the (insert not kind word) people want to place a moratorium on planting palms on public land.  Even palms paid for by private funding already allocated to be planted would be forbidden from being planted.  The excuses were absurd.  

"Well, even native palms wouldn't be in their native habitats in all the parks and wetlands,  palms can cost as much as $4,000 per tree per year to take care of, tree canopy is everything and palms don't provide much canopy or absorb enough water in floods, etc.  Not one good argument.  I spent a good bit of time debating with them.  Granted they were very polite and respectful, but one guy voting against palms "informed me" that palmettoes were not actually real palm trees.

How do you fight stupid?  Part of the argument was that even Miami outlawed public palm plantings.  Anyone have similar experiences?  What solutions has anyone achieved to correct such ignorance?

We are now also familiar with this here in Switzerland, as it was introduced on September 1, 2024 with regard to Trachycarpus fortunei:
However, since September 1, 2024, human reproductive support has been a thing of the past: the revision of the Release Ordinance prohibits the sale, breeding, renting or giving away and thus also the import of the Chinese hemp palm in Switzerland.
at the same time, many are complaining that the native trees cannot withstand climate change and simultaneous warming. and apparently not all experts were really sure at the time whether the trachycarpus fortunei is now really damaging to nature in the medium and long term and hinders or displaces other plants ...
 

[Ivanos1982]

This happened in El Paso after a freeze in Feb 2011 killed almost all palms. The local paper (which is run by idiots in my opinion) published an article from an environmentalist saying "palm trees don't want to live here" and after that, the city banned palms from being considered for landscaping. Years after and the city has some pretty bad landscaping and looks ugly compared to San Antonio, Tucson and even Las Cruces. It takes the voice of very ignorant people to persuade an entire council and government, no matter how wrong they are. This is why it is scary knowing people in power have very low mental capacities. If they let themselves be convinced about something as wrong as palms not being 'native' can you imagine how they handle money? corruption? development? It's a messed up world out there.

[flplantguy]

Lots of great points made here, shout out to the annoying "palms are grasses" people. Only if your an ape or an ant dude🙄.

[PAPalmtrees]

14 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

but one guy voting against palms "informed me" that palmettoes were not actually real palm trees.

Not a real palm tree? is this guy OK?

[Mandrew968]

Why is the average IQ only 100...

[Silas_Sancona]

10 hours ago, aabell said:

I think this is an artifact of a deeply ingrained cultural bias, in the US and Europe, towards being cold and miserable. For thousands of years, surviving winter was the main thing anyone was worried about. Even today, winter is a time for noble chores like chopping wood, shoveling snow, and battling depression, while summer is a time for silly indulgences like going to the beach, sun bathing, and air conditioning. (the larger historical context for this weird morality about cold vs. warm climates I think is fairly obvious as well, but not necessary to get into here.)

 

So while the sunbelt has exploded in population since the invention of air conditioning, the overall culture, especially in the suburbs and HOAs, is dominated by this puritan, northern mindset. There is a bizarre Stockholm syndrome phenomenon where many people claim to "miss snow", while they choose to live in a climate where they run the AC 300 days a year. They want to have their cake and eat it too: they try to grow fruit that can't produce without enough chill hours, they insist on planting hostas and hydrangeas that melt in the relentless heat. 

Agree with this 99%..  Lots of people here who come from back east ..or places like Utah, or Idaho and expect to see every house w/ a lush, green lawn,  or want to grow trees like Ash, Pines, and/or Mulberry,  ..Along with " temperate " fruit trees, and other " wayy out of their league " plants like Camelias, etc  and whine constantly about the " desert " look  ..You know, plants that will actually survive here -now, and esp. in the future-  ..and don't seem to comprehend why their " northern " stuff dies ..or looks beyond ugly after a couple brutal summers / dry and warm winters.

Nurseries, big and smaller, who should know better, are guilty of bending the knee for these types too..

 Me myself, whenever i hear that kind of complaining, i tell it like it is .." Un-pleased with how yards look in a hot and dry -most of the time- climate / with what will survive here, move.. Happy to toss a penny into your moving truck fund to get you on the road  faster "  


Going to the beach a " silly " indulgence?   ..Very intrigued by that statement.. 

 

10 hours ago, aabell said:

All of that to say, the ill-informed factoids about how "palms aren't really trees, palms are grass" (not true) or "palms don't create shade" are just excuses for people who refuse to embrace the fact that they are living in a hot subtropical climate. Hopefully it's an attitude that will change with time.

Not in total agreement here, but some good points..

Happy to give anyone $1 if they come on out here and stand under one of the palms in any yard in the neighborhood / street island, etc -the entire day,  when it is 110-120F out.. I promise i'll untie you from the palm < And get you to the hospital >  when you've had enough, lol..  Absolutely no shade value in those instances compared to trees.. Don't need to be Einstein to understand that, ..or pay a participant more for the experiment,  and not an excuse for those who would rather not have palms in their yards, no matter where they're from  or live...

That- Said-     Hang out within a grove of them ...Ala at some place like Agua Caliente Park in Tucson, or in habitat some place in FL?  .Definitely shade value under those there.. 

Very few folks have the space to enclose their properties in a giant grove of palms. Let alone the $$$$ to afford the reasonable maintenance the cities would require..  

Yea, you could let them go au- natural, which is good for the wildlife palm skirts benefit,  but, in a city,   you're risking pitchforks and ..other physical forms of protest. from neighbors after your yard full of 50ft tall palms in dresses catch fire and spread the embers to other homes nearby.. 

Most folks would rather avoid ..Pitchforks..


On this, i think the big problem is that people get the association confused.. Yes, indirectly, Palms are related to grasses ...But so are things like Aroids, Orchids, Agave, Yucca, Heliconia and Banana,  and Lilies  < oh my! > ...All are Monocots.. Palms are not " Trees" ..Period..

  I think the key to getting thru to people -in that respect-  is to point out / detail both the relation, and differences when talking w/ them..  Not sure that everyone will get it, but i think most would,  and the effort put into explaining things in a way that is easy to grasp could help them start to see palms / value of inclusion within a cultivated landscape with a less boxed in kind of view..

It has worked for me when in discussions with clients who were quite " palm shy.. " 


 

[SeanK]

21 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

I am venting after leaving a tree planning session for the local city/town.  There are four native palm species here, but the (insert not kind word) people want to place a moratorium on planting palms on public land.  Even palms paid for by private funding already allocated to be planted would be forbidden from being planted.  The excuses were absurd.  

"Well, even native palms wouldn't be in their native habitats in all the parks and wetlands,  palms can cost as much as $4,000 per tree per year to take care of, tree canopy is everything and palms don't provide much canopy or absorb enough water in floods, etc.  Not one good argument.  I spent a good bit of time debating with them.  Granted they were very polite and respectful, but one guy voting against palms "informed me" that palmettoes were not actually real palm trees.

How do you fight stupid?  Part of the argument was that even Miami outlawed public palm plantings.  Anyone have similar experiences?  What solutions has anyone achieved to correct such ignorance?

About 20 years ago my GA county was building parks. At the time, our local IPS chapter gave away $500 yearly grants. I proposed to the Parks and Recreation dept planting Needles and S.minors.  I was even willing to pay out-of-pocket for some plants.

Alas, the county guys would have nothing of it. Didn't matter if the plants were Georgia natives.

[miamicuse]

so where did coconut palms come from?

I understand Palm Beach County has been removing coconut palms from some beaches due to them being not native.  How long does a plant need to be "established" to be considered native?  Ironic some of the municipalities who has the name "palm" in their names are now against palms.

some relevant threads:

The main "complaints" I have heard from politicians who are against palms, specifically non native palms are:

• - do less to preserve Florida's biodiversity
• - does nothing to protect the state from catastrophic climate change

and the palms on top of their list of being "invasive" palms are:

• Coconut palms (Cocos nucifera)
• Queen palms (Syagrus romanzoffiana)
• Washington palms (Washingtonia robusta)
• Solitary palms (Ptychosperma elegans)
• Senegal date palms (Phoenix reclinata)
• Chinese fan palm (Livistona chinensis)

[meridannight]

If people want to push this whole ''native philosophy'' thing, then first of all -- stop destroying (rain)forests and other natural areas for condos, apartment buildings, shopping malls, and parking lots. You are not native in those areas when you move in there or when you profit from your developments. Stop those infringements first. Would make you look less like a hypocrite when talking about protecting 'native' species. 
 

[KrisKupsch]

because they are stupid 

[Palmfarmer]

8 hours ago, meridannight said:

If people want to push this whole ''native philosophy'' thing, then first of all -- stop destroying (rain)forests and other natural areas for condos, apartment buildings, shopping malls, and parking lots. You are not native in those areas when you move in there or when you profit from your developments. Stop those infringements first. Would make you look less like a hypocrite when talking about protecting 'native' species. 
 

A lot of them don’t understand how things work. Remember a comment on YouTube about phoenix volunteers popping up in LA. “It’s so bad, they are super invasive and use so much water” some woman wrote in a comment haha

many uninformed people as well that believe palms are only tropical plants or it’s the Native plant Nazis. 

[MikeB]

Gorilla planting is always an option.

[Foggy Paul]

Here in SF, there is this stupid sense of competitiveness with SoCal, so a lot of people hate them just because of that. There is also a sense that they are water hogs (sometimes true) and therefore indefensible ecologically. (My microclimate is moist year-round and I irrigate once a week for six months of the year.) And there is a bias towards native plants, which is fine but very limiting. So yeah, I don’t argue with them and I’m glad that our little garden is an outlier. Not nearly as much of an outlier as @Darold Petty’s!!

[Darold Petty]

I have failed with three out of four species from the California coastal redwood forest.  Should be easy, right ? My garden is 1.2 miles or 2 km from the Pacific Ocean. Well, NOT.   Natives often have extremely narrow environmental requirements.  The common, non-native plants offered at typical retail nurseries are those that have a broader tolerance for different conditions, (and are more profitable ! )  

[Rivera]

Your frustration is understandable, Jeff. 

Like Paul and Darold, I live in San Francisco, but I am at the westernmost fringe a couple blocks from the beach. The prevailing horticultural misconception in my own neighborhood seems to be "nothing will grow here."

This mistaken notion may have begun with the simple fact that many "traditional" garden plants (ornamentals, but fruit trees also) are not at their best in our cool but mild, salty windswept neighborhood. People come from other places (even just 30 miles away), make a half-hearted attempt to grow a few plants, and then give up and blame the place. 

It's unrealistic of us to expect that the general public will have even a fraction of the curiosity and passion that drives people like us to fill our gardens and chat on plant forums, but it's still a shame to see open ground go unplanted or worse... get filled with concrete. 

I believe wild spaces are for native species, but I don't venture to tell people what to do in their own gardens. In our own home garden, I have worked to create a balanced space that offers us seasonal interest and beauty, food to eat, space for leisure, and dozens of native plant species that, besides being worth growing for their own sake, support a whole heap of wildlife (not just in theory but in actual observation). And I've chosen many of our exotics to support native fauna too, which they do.

Paul is right that the local trend has been to "go native" here, which I have no problem with, but most people don't seek to understand how to grow these plants and don't understand the difference in the needs of a wild plant and a young nursery plant regardless of its native status. 

It doesn't need to be either/or. It can be both. Much of our garden is water-conserving, but not all of it. And the natives and exotics grow together by horticultural requirements, not in segregation by ethos. 

Palms fit very nicely into tight urban spaces like ours, and this gives them great utility in garden design where large-growing trees or leggy shrubs that require a lot of grooming fail to suit their spaces optimally. And palms are fantastic.

Natives and exotics, mixing freely. Tell me again about how nothing grows here. 

[Darold Petty]

Nice Butia, Chris, get it in the ground !  

[Rivera]

37 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Nice Butia, Chris, get it in the ground !  

That one is headed to a friend in Redwood City. 

[Jubilation]

@Rivera beautiful, beautiful garden! And I think native + exotic (non-invasive) is a beautiful thing.

I'm guess I'll voice some opposition since OP did ask why.

A non-native palm doesn't solve the natural monoculture issue as chances are that palm won't offer as many natural benefits as the oaks, various prunus species and many native forbs and so on.  Most of the USA does not have native palms, its generally non-native palms used in these plantings and I think its a valid concern for a city plantings if many palms die in cold snaps and become a blight until they're replaced.

Some of these arguments are like "well environmentalists have to live in a house and society so therefore they don't care about nature" which is very zero sum mentality.

2 hours ago, Rivera said:

It doesn't need to be either/or. It can be both. Much of our garden is water-conserving, but not all of it. And the natives and exotics grow together by horticultural requirements, not in segregation by ethos. 

 

But generally, I agree with this. Its not "either or".  

[TropicsEnjoyer]

Grass alternatives should be priority #1 for many places rather than whining about palms. Ever since I move to N florida grass has been a pain in the (grass - gr) 😤 Too much sun kills it, too much shade kills it, needs water every other day, needs raking, etc. I can understand the shade argument, but just plant more trees alongside palms. Unity over division. It would be nice for people to embrace the possibility of a diverse garden instead of just wanting basic green hedges and 1 million of the same tree.

[Kim]

People on all sides of these plant arguments are mostly creating excuses to favor their own personal tastes. Most often there is nothing scientific in the examination of the discussion, nothing about local culture, history, no seriously realistic discussions about what can or can't thrive. For cities these days, it's all about the budget. My city now spends as little as possible on things like trees -- of any kind. Private efforts from non-profits like Tree People and Tree San Diego are the few supportive voices in favor of planting trees, though palms are not typically part of their plans (viewed as fire hazards by many). Now that the palm weevil has taken out hundreds of Phoenix canariensis, public palm planting here in San Diego is essentially doomed, other than in private gardens. The cost of removing the CIDPs is significant. Also the city went after tall Washingtonias as interfering with air traffic. (?) Not that I'm a great lover of them, but ... really? Was it not more about the cost of trimming and cleanup after storms blow down the dried fronds?

Fortunately there are a number of botanical gems in San Diego that DO grow palms -- thank you San Diego Zoo, Balboa Park, San Diego Botanical Gardens, among others. Thankfully, these places value plants of all kinds from all over the world. Please support your local botanical gardens!

Also celebrate our private gardens where we can (usually) plant whatever we wish. It's my property, my water bill -- and my water bill is tiny, so take that!

[BayAndroid]

I agree, support your local botanical gardens as much as possible. Diversity of planting is essential in a world where the climate is changing and some alternative plants may fill in the gaps for certain species, where and when they develop... 

 

 

[meridannight]

9 hours ago, TropicsEnjoyer said:

Grass alternatives should be priority #1 for many places rather than whining about palms. Ever since I move to N florida grass has been a pain in the (grass - gr) 😤 Too much sun kills it, too much shade kills it, needs water every other day, needs raking, etc. I can understand the shade argument, but just plant more trees alongside palms. Unity over division. It would be nice for people to embrace the possibility of a diverse garden instead of just wanting basic green hedges and 1 million of the same tree.

Completely agree with everything here. Grass/lawn is a misguided historical monocultural practice that people should be weaned off of. All these residential neighborhoods requiring swathes of perfect manicured lawn around the house just because it looks ''pretty'' (i don't think it does, but that's me), is anything but healthy. Yes, it needs a lot of water, that's one thing. But it also doesn't provide any kind of an environment for bugs and small animals to live in/use. Instead of a manicured lawn, a well thought-out planting of ground covers and other smaller plants will achieve a much healthier ecosystem, and one that is prettier too. 

And yes, diverse plantings is the way to go. Not use one-two species of tree/shrub for your urban sidewalks or home garden, but various different ones. The moment you start adding more species things usually improve. Not everything you think of will always work, but that's one of the things making gardening/growing plants so fun -- experimenting with different things and seeing what will work. 

My garden is full of bees, dragonflies, lizards, and spiders. If they feel safe to make a home in a garden, I only see it as a good thing.

 

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 3/27/2025 at 7:41 PM, VA Jeff said:

... What solutions has anyone achieved to correct such ignorance?

You were fair by engaging these opponents and evaluating their claims. It's important to know that you can move on and also be comfortable with your own values, and not allow weak claims to disrupt your contentment. Sometimes opinions are based on fear which can manifest itself in a variety of ways.

[Las Palmas Norte]

21 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

I have failed with three out of four species from the California coastal redwood forest.  Should be easy, right ? My garden is 1.2 miles or 2 km from the Pacific Ocean. Well, NOT.   Natives often have extremely narrow environmental requirements.  The common, non-native plants offered at typical retail nurseries are those that have a broader tolerance for different conditions, (and are more profitable ! )  

True. Our native Western Red Cedar here are dying off in marginal areas at a concerning rate. We've had issues with the pine beetle devastating forests. There is quite likely other environmental consequences affecting plant life or will in the foreseeable future.

You're right about garden centers / nurseries with their vast array of non-native offerings. Here, I'd be willing to estimate 99% of what is provided is non-native. So that argument is dead in the water.

[SeanK]

14 hours ago, TropicsEnjoyer said:

Grass alternatives should be priority #1 for many places rather than whining about palms. Ever since I move to N florida grass has been a pain in the (grass - gr) 😤 Too much sun kills it, too much shade kills it, needs water every other day, needs raking, etc. I can understand the shade argument, but just plant more trees alongside palms. Unity over division. It would be nice for people to embrace the possibility of a diverse garden instead of just wanting basic green hedges and 1 million of the same tree.

Lawn turfs require a lot of chemical intervention. Florida has native plant societies that offer some options.

When I serviced mine sites, those in the US and Canada had "reclaim" requirements. Overburden was removed and piled up. Next, mineral excavated. Then, overburden replaced. Finally, native plants installed to restore the land and provide for fauna.

[Silas_Sancona]

3 hours ago, meridannight said:

Completely agree with everything here. Grass/lawn is a misguided historical monocultural practice that people should be weaned off of. All these residential neighborhoods requiring swathes of perfect manicured lawn around the house just because it looks ''pretty'' (i don't think it does, but that's me), is anything but healthy.

Also agree that the " traditional " lawn is a waste of space / something that can be very unhealthy and became a fad based on very misguided views of " attractiveness " and  assumed class / status.

That said, they can provide valuable cooling ..but..  use of anything green and living in a landscape provides the same service..

In a place like the desert, lawns ..esp. turf spaces that occupy large areas, consume very valuable resources that are of more benefit directed elsewhere..  If managed the way most people manage them, they can also cause harm ..IE: repeated / constant application of pesticides / herbicides,  and over-fertilization practices..

As was taught many years ago when taking certification courses,  ..if a client is going to have / request lawn space,  utilize it where it is most valuable / useful, and keep it as small as possible..

Back yard, where most people spend time / entertain guests,  is where space devoted to a lawn is most valuable..  Front lawns? ..in most cases, just a symbol of assumed vanity / class / status..
 

3 hours ago, meridannight said:

But it also doesn't provide any kind of an environment for bugs and small animals to live in/use.

This isn't 100% perfect and comes back to the last sentence above...   In my own yard at least, where i can't completely rip out all the space devoted to " lawn ",  i don't apply any sort of pesticide, / herbicide, haven't applied -any- fertilizer, ever   ...rarely rake,  and only " mow " w/ a trimmer..

Based on the level of both insectivorous bird and lizard activity, there's plenty of bugs out there, lol.. I've also noted at least 4 sps of locally native, ground nesting Bees / 3 sps of Wasp that nest through it.  Ants as well..

Earthworms? ..full of em' ..the " lawns " that is..

No " June Bugs "  ( Several species of Chafer Beetles ) here,  but back in CA ..and where i lived back east, like clockwork ..lawns there were full of them in late spring, which drew in everything that eats them like candy.   In some cases, that ment physical damage from Skunks and Raccoons who would tear up patches of grass as they went after beetle grubs,  ...like they're supposed to do...

 

3 hours ago, meridannight said:

Instead of a manicured lawn, a well thought-out planting of ground covers and other smaller plants will achieve a much healthier ecosystem, and one that is prettier too. 

..When i say " lawns " .. i mean  ..while Grass (  Bermuda in my case / most yards here  ) makes up most of both,  over the last few years, i've allowed ground hugging  ground- cover-y lawn alternatives like Dichondra,  and some sort of ground hugging Mallow that grows in turf areas here to take over out back..

Strangely enough, both the Dichondra  and Mallow  -what- ever- it- is- handle our heat / my unwillingness to water constantly better than the Bermuda.. 

Where the Dichondra is thickest / most extensive, also seems to be where a Gopher related activity is the least..

Because i can't tear it out and put in the kind of meadow i'd prefer, out front, i've started dropping in patches of Rain Lilies ( Zephyranthes / Habranthus sps )  and plan on adding Frogfruit ( Phyla nodiflora ) , and a species of Hoffmannseggia that grows in lawns here.

If i could ..and is something i've explained to people they can do, even here in the desert,   if they really want some sort of " lawn " - like feature in their landscape, we have a number of summer growing ( C4 ) grasses that stay under a foot in height which can work as a native meadow, that only needs to be cut once or twice a year. 

Since most of our native grasses, even the low growers, are bunch or short -length stoloniferous -type growers, plenty of space between the grasses for planting a wealth of under used native flowering stuff from S. AZ / neighboring Sonora.

During the winter, when the grasses are dormant, ..that's the time for locally / regionally native, cool season annual wildflowers...

Essentially, as you mention, a non turf- centric " lawn " doesn't have to be boring. 

F  what the neighborhood Turf jockey wasting $$$$ for hollow praise from someone 3 doors down might  think of your " weedy " flower filled " lawn ". 

[VA Jeff]

On 3/28/2025 at 7:16 AM, aabell said:

I think this is an artifact of a deeply ingrained cultural bias, in the US and Europe, towards being cold and miserable. For thousands of years, surviving winter was the main thing anyone was worried about. Even today, winter is a time for noble chores like chopping wood, shoveling snow, and battling depression, while summer is a time for silly indulgences like going to the beach, sun bathing, and air conditioning. (the larger historical context for this weird morality about cold vs. warm climates I think is fairly obvious as well, but not necessary to get into here.)

 

So while the sunbelt has exploded in population since the invention of air conditioning, the overall culture, especially in the suburbs and HOAs, is dominated by this puritan, northern mindset. There is a bizarre Stockholm syndrome phenomenon where many people claim to "miss snow", while they choose to live in a climate where they run the AC 300 days a year. They want to have their cake and eat it too: they try to grow fruit that can't produce without enough chill hours, they insist on planting hostas and hydrangeas that melt in the relentless heat. 

 

People who are trapped in this mindset will never embrace palms. Palms truly are emblematic of something "other". Sabal palmetto is a native plant in your area, but what it really represents is the northernmost outpost of a group that primarily exists in the Caribbean and Mexico. Of course you and I think this is very cool but it's also exactly why these types aren't interested. 

 

All of that to say, the ill-informed factoids about how "palms aren't really trees, palms are grass" (not true) or "palms don't create shade" are just excuses for people who refuse to embrace the fact that they are living in a hot subtropical climate. Hopefully it's an attitude that will change with time.

I believe that more than half of the board members are from Georgia.  They did overpay bring in some advisors from near the DC area who seemed to be climate alarmists.

 

What they shortsightedly ignore is that the county gets a lot of money from beach tourism.  If this city wants to grow in popularity, it ought to embrace what makes it different from places up north or more inland.

[fr8train]

Coming from the north, it always amazes me people want to squander the climate they live in on boring plants. What's more emblematic of exotic beauty than a palm tree? So few parts of the country can actually sustain proper palm trees, even the most cold tolerant, I always thought the few places where could grow would fully embrace them.