Not thrinax, but what?

[Marc]

The seeds for this lightly armed palm came from the western Caribbean, from under a palm labeled thrinax radiata...  but, obviously, the palm is lightly armed and the leaves are semi-circular.  Any guesses as to what this might be? 

[Merlyn]

@Marc I'm no expert on ID, but it looks like a Chamaerops Humilis to me.  I think the thorns rule out most of the Thrinax and Coccothrinax types, though maybe some Trithrinax are armed?

[Mazat]

11 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@Marc I'm no expert on ID, but it looks like a Chamaerops Humilis to me.  I think the thorns rule out most of the Thrinax and Coccothrinax types, though maybe some Trithrinax are armed?

Merlyn:absolutely right. we had ours freed from the old leaves yesterday afternoon and were stung several times. and our chamaerops humilis have also multiplied. 

[Mazat]

 

1 hour ago, Marc said:

The seeds for this lightly armed palm came from the western Caribbean, from under a palm labeled thrinax radiata...  but, obviously, the palm is lightly armed and the leaves are semi-circular.  Any guesses as to what this might be? 

Marc:yes, it is chameorops humilis. a beautiful, very strong palm in terms of frost and weather conditions, according to our experience.

good luck.

[Harry’s Palms]

Yes , agreed . They are nice palms that grow constantly but take time to gain height. Look out for those thorns! Harry

[Marc]

Thank you, I appreciate the comments, but I am not so sure.  My other chaemerops humilis have much more slender leaflets, are multitrunked and are much more heavily armed.  For the palms in these photos also, the trunks are also much more slender.  I also note that I have a slightly older specimen, not seen in my earlier photos, for which the newer larger leaves both seem to be much larger than Chamerops, and also are starting to show some undulation (no midrib).

[Merlyn]

@Marc I might be wrong on this, but I think a key feature of all the "Thrinax" types is unarmed petioles.  Some are described as "armed" but referring to spiny stuff at the trunk.  My place is a bit too cold for most Thrinax/Trithrinax/Coccothrinax types, so I'm just going mostly by memory of what other people have said. 

I have several Chamaerops in the yard, with a variety of leaf shapes, sizes and colors.  One is mostly green, another is 3 feet of clear trunk and zero pups, another is bluish with 3 feet of trunk and a mess of offsets.  Some have big thorns, some smallish, and most have "straw colored" thorns, but one has large black thorns.  That's a characteristic of the "Cerifera" version.  And then I have two "Vulcano" dwarf types that I hope turn out to be consistently dwarfed.

The other palm that popped into my head is the Everglades Palm, Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii.  They have fairly long and slender petioles with straw-colored thorns and a fiber mat on the trunks.  Those are also found in FL, the Caribbean, and areas in Central America.

[Justin31703]

I believe this is Acoelorrhaphe wrightii. 

[Fusca]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@Marc I might be wrong on this, but I think a key feature of all the "Thrinax" types is unarmed petioles.  Some are described as "armed" but referring to spiny stuff at the trunk.  My place is a bit too cold for most Thrinax/Trithrinax/Coccothrinax types, so I'm just going mostly by memory of what other people have said. 

I don't think you're too cold for Trithrinax - it must be some other reason if they don't do well in your area.  The Oblate School in San Antonio has a Trithrinax acanthacoma that survived 10°F in 2021 and @Jubaea_James760 has a beautiful Trithrinax campestris in his zone 8b (I think?) yard.

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

I don't think you're too cold for Trithrinax - it must be some other reason if they don't do well in your area.  The Oblate School in San Antonio has a Trithrinax acanthacoma that survived 10°F in 2021 and @Jubaea_James760 has a beautiful Trithrinax campestris in his zone 8b (I think?) yard.

Good point, I honestly hadn't looked up Trithrinax hardiness.  It looks like Acanthocoma, Brasiliensis, Campestris and Schizophylla would be possibles here.  I lost Thrinax Radiata to the first frosts, Coccothrinax Barbadensis/Dussiana to about 27F and frost, both to crown rots.  I have Coccothrinax Argentata, 2x Leucothrinax Morrisii and Coccothrinax Argentea, as well as a Zombia/Coccothrinax hybrid all growing well.

[Fusca]

53 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Good point, I honestly hadn't looked up Trithrinax hardiness.  It looks like Acanthocoma, Brasiliensis, Campestris and Schizophylla would be possibles here.  I lost Thrinax Radiata to the first frosts, Coccothrinax Barbadensis/Dussiana to about 27F and frost, both to crown rots.  I have Coccothrinax Argentata, 2x Leucothrinax Morrisii and Coccothrinax Argentea, as well as a Zombia/Coccothrinax hybrid all growing well.

I have a couple of Coccothrinax barbadensis I grew from seed (along with miraguama and scoparia) that I hope to try once they get a bit bigger.  I lost a 5-gal Leucothrinax morrisii suddenly in the fall before any cold hit but I might try again in a different part of the yard.  Not sure what killed it.

[Merlyn]

@Fusca Morrisii is definitely worth another shot.  Mine has been in the front yard for about 3.5 years and been through several upper 20s frosts with only about 25% leaf burn.  

The one I have two of is Cryosophila Warscewiczii (say that 5x fast!).  I had to go look at my planting drawing to check which one it was.  They did well at 25F + frost, burning about 50% as ~1-2' tall plants but bouncing back quick.  You should check that one out too!  I bought mine from Multiflora out in CA.

[Merlyn]

@Marc here is one of my two Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii.  It is supposed to be a Cerifera type, bought from TCHP back in early 2021.  One of them clustered immediately, the other took until it was about 4-5 feet tall before starting to cluster.

And a closer view of the thorns and trunk area:

[Jubaea_James760]

@Fusca thanks Jon!  Yes, zone 8b. Trithrinax campestris seems to be bullet proof here. 

To the OP, my vote is you have a Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii. Looks very similar to mine at that age.

[Marc]

Acoelorrhaphe seemed to be to be a possibility, thank you.  My understanding is that Chaemerops has forward-facing spines on the petioles- also, I have some chaemerops and the leaflets are also much more highly split than the 'caribbean' palms I am trying to identify.  I have a few further notes, for the inquisitive:  (1) out of 4-5 specimens grown from seed, the spines are barely noticeable - the longest of any specimen might approach 1.0mm, but most of the rest are almost like tiny protrustions; they are definitely not forward facing as a rule - one can get an idea of this by looking at the photo (below) which has my hand in the background; (2) the crown for these young palms seems to be much less dense and the palm seems to want to form a slender truck - much more upright than my chaemerops; and (3) the leaflets on the chaemerops seem to be more slender and more divided, almost to the hastula, whereas on the palm I am trying to identify, they are split roughly to 1/2 the leaf diameter, with a tendency to form two much more noticeable divisions, as seen in the new photograph below to the right; (4) finally, the leaf for at least the young plants tend to be hemispherical, as with a chaemerops, but also show a tendancy to be off-center, that is, with the hand (palm) of the leaf at a noticeable angle to the petiole.  Any further thoughts? 

[Marc]

One further observation - the plants are still young, but my largest is probably 15 gallon size (3-4 feet tall) and I have noticed no tendency at all toward multiple trunks or a clustering habit.....

[Marc]

Also, the older specimens (e.g., 15 gallon sized, but in the ground), in full sun, are starting to develop an undulating leaf pattern as well as a bluish green tint to the leaves, almost like a sabal (but they are not sabal)....  See the first photo below which is taken along a plane of the petiole... the second photo shows the color of the underside of the leaf.