cat palm in zone 9?

[southlatropical]

First post here. I live in south Louisiana zone 9.

I bought a 5 1/2 foot cat palm for 5 bucks at HD. I had been wanting to try one outside to see if they would make it here. It is planted against a wall on the protected side of the house with a live oak canopy partially overhead. We had one frost so far this year. The shaded area where I planted the cat palm saw no frost at all that morning. We had several days of +80F this past week, but now there is another frost comming tomorrow night (32F is the forcast). Would it help or hurt to water it the evening before the frost? And, does this palm have a chance of making it here? I do plan on wrapping with something tomorrow night.

Thanks

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Welcome the Palmtalk Isaac!

I think the Chamaedorea cataractarum can handle 32F (or even a bit colder) for a brief period...  If its not in a place where it will frost, I would think it will be fine...  As far as watering before and after a frost, don't do that!  I've always been told that it is not good to water a plant when freezing temps are imminent.  But if one was going to water to prevent freezing that the irrigation needed to continue until the freezing temps had passed.  Hope that helps!

:cool:

[southlatropical]

Thanks for the help. We bought a house last year but I only started landscaping it this year. I have aquired most of my plants through trading on Gardenweb and bananas.org and am currently scooping up stuff on sale at the local nurseries. I am growing bananas, heliconia, gingers, cannas, bird of paradise, yucca, philo selloum, a few bamboos, and several other plants. I have 3 large sagos, 2unidentified fan palms with about 20' of trunk, canary island date, and some Christmas palm seedlings (will be kept in a pot). Next spring I plan to buy some Mule palms and tropical bamboo (lako and chungii). I grew bananas and cannas for years at our old place, but still learning about palms and gardening in general.

[_Keith]

Welcome Isaac, there are at least other people on the board from South Louisiana.  I am one, hailing from Iberia Parish.   So, with a low of 32 tonight, would you be from Lafayette, BR, or the Northshore, maybe Lake Charles?  Next 2 nights here are projected at 34, so I am guessing you are a little north of me.

Keith

Just noticed Zone 9 in your post, so I am limiting my guess to Lafayette or maybe just south of Baton Rouge.

[southlatropical]

Tonight's low is forcast to be 32 and tomorrow night 34. I am in Fordoche between Opelousas and Baton Rouge. North of you and probably more zone 8b than 9. Although a zone 9 according to the arborday zone map. Here are some pictures of the unidentified fan palms that came with the new house. Someone on Gardenweb identified them as Trachycarpus fortunei.

[faith bishock]

Cats are pretty indestructable planted with overstory as you described.   Frost will not be an issue.  I've had them growing under a large oak  for more than 10 years -  I live inland in Sarasota, Fl & have had temps below 24 & they've showed no damage.  My husband & I moved here from Miami in 92 after Andrew & brought our palms with us.  You'd be surprised as to which palms can take cold.  Frost is another thing altogether.  If you want to water your palms before a cold spell,   flood the ground.

[Kathryn]

Welcome to the IPS message board Isaac!

Have you monitored the winter temperatures in Fordoche? I live in the New Orleans area, which many people claim is 9b and this has been the case for the last few winters. The temperature in my yard (on my own thermometers) hasn’t gotten below 28ºF during the last three winters. Every 3 to 5 years the temperature will get down into the low twenties, so it really is 9a. My climate is similar to Faith’s and I think Keith’s also, but I suspect that you get 5 to 10º cooler when some of these cold fronts move through.

That said, I would plant just about any plant that I paid on $5 and see what happens.

A Syagrus romanzoffiana (queen palm) has been growing in Simmesport just north of you for seven or eight years. I don’t know how it has survived since these normally get damaged in the low twenties and die after temperatures in the upper teens. The temperature there normally gets to 18ºF many nights and sometimes gets as low as 12ºF. I don’t know if it sets viable seed, but you may want to get some and see how it does for you. Here is a picture with Eddie (Palman) from about two years ago.

[edbrown_3]

Ms Budrot,

Thanks for the card!,  I owe you a call and visit as well-- lost all phone book and numbers . We enjoyed the visit .  I cant reply to your email it is one way--- for some reason ----

Southla,  I live in Jax 9a--- I have grown these outside for a dozen years. THey are hardy down to atleast 25F. You can dig them real quick and drag into a green house--  This is what I do. I stack them to Mar and replant -   then they take off and keep growing. It does seem to hurt the tree. Last 3 winters I havent even had to move them.  I have them as large understory plantings around the yard.

Best wishes,

Ed

I

[southlatropical]

Kathryn,

We just moved here from Port Allen which is only 30mi away. Last winter was very mild. I only remember about 3 or 4 frosts. I glossed over the record lows by day for the months of Dec, Jan, Feb in Fordoche. I only looked for temps below 30 from 2000-2007. I found two consecutive days of 24F in 2004 and one of 20F in 2004. I am sure we will dip below 20F here and there every few years.

In regards to the queen palm, I thought long and hard about planting one and decided to go with a Mule palm instead. I am going to order a one gallon and several seedlings from multrie palms (not sure if that's spelled right) this spring. And you are right, I'll try any $5 plant outdoors just to satisfy my curiosity.

ebrown,

I never thought of digging them up if it goes below 25F. That is a great idea, I could put it in my shed. It would be very easy to dig this year as it was just planted last week. By the way, this was the most root bound plant I've ever purchased. The 1.5 gal pot almost all root. It is amazing the thing was in such good condition.

[mnorell]

I grow these in my 9a downtown Natchez microclimate. Surrounding areas are high 8b but we're a low 9a here and the last three years have seen minima of 24/27/22.8 at my place. My cataractarum are planted in various areas, but I can say that under canopy and against the house they do fine. I have one 2-3 years old that I pay no attention to, it's small and grows slowly, but has never been damaged. Others planted in my coldest air-drainage spot under open sky burned pretty much to the ground last year, one struggled to return and ultimately failed, the other grew slowly but steadily and now is a healthy small palm again. I do mulch these. Since they're clustering, they will return if it's not too cold and the freeze doesn't last too long. They're certainly one of the hardier Chamaedorea, though nowhere near the tolerances of radicalis and microspadix.

I plant nice 5' $10 Wal-Mart specimens in the spring in front of the house with the idea that if they are lost the following winter, it's no big loss. They are grown by the gazillions and readily available every spring from big-box stores. I wouldn't worry about it. If you're going to water, I agree you should just flood the ground. But I assume you got a good rain as we did yesterday, and that will keep temps up a bit so you shouldn't have to water. Also, remember not to wet the foliage before a freeze! They're forecasting somewhere between 27 and 31 here tonight, with anywhere from 4-7 hours below freezing, so it looks like it will do damage just about all the way to the Gulf Coast. But of course N.O. will keep warm as usual.

[southlatropical]

mnorell,

You are on bananas.org also? I believe we were posting in a thread there about heliconia. How are yours doing? My H. rostrata is beat up but still trying to grow with the stretch of +80F temps we just had.

According to 'The Weather Channel' we were supposed to see 32F last night but it only went down to 36F. Tonight is forcast for 31F.

[mnorell]

Yes, indeed, we were talking about Heliconias...and so far they're doing well. We've bottomed out at 32.4 here in that cold event about 10 days ago, but there was significant frost accumulation on exposed leaf-surfaces away from the house. Everything's fine except for the most exposed banana leaves , which declined and now look nasty, though many green leaves still exist. We had 34.4F this morning with no frost at all, it was still pretty windy until early this morning.

The Heliconias that look the best are subulata and latispatha, including 'Distans.' Lingulata is throwing a large inflorescence (this from a one-season seedling plant!) and so I'm trying semi-heroic efforts to nurse it through the cold until it opens fully. angusta 'Holiday' is in full bloom, though I will cut these today since a lengthy freeze seems imminent tonight. All seem to have continued growing during the mild or warm episodes this fall. In addition to subulata and 'Pedro Ortiz,', H. bourgaeana, spissa (in container), griggsiana (in container) and of course schiedeana have continued putting on good, noticeable growth. collinsiana, rostrata and aemygdeana have spotted where exposed to the open sky during cold periods, but wherever there is some overhead protection (even broken) they look good still. Of course the psittacorum 'Andromeda' and other cultivars began failing when temps went below 50F so they have been dug and planted in the greenhouse for future stock-plants. 'Guyana' was burned in the frost but still appears healthy enough.

After tonight the real test will begin and it will have to wait until March, I'm sure, before survival info becomes apparent. Will report back on how the rostrata does, I have one mostly protected under the edge of a cherry-laurel canopy and it still looks great. Are your white gingers still blooming? I saw them in one of your recent posts and they looked great, even after that recent frost. Please keep posting on your temps and how your garden fares. Do you have a weather station on wunderground? I'm on there (KMSNATCH4) and it's a very useful thing to look at their google-map view of all temps in the region, comparison between in-town and airport temps etc.

[southlatropical]

Where did you get all those heliconia? Did you order on the web? The butterfly ginger proved to be pretty hardy, certainly more than the zingiber zerumbet (shampoo ginger) planted just 10 feet away. That last frost did'nt bother it much, but it did start to go dormant and was looking shabby so I cut them all back. I'll have to check out weatherunderground, and I'll certainly keep you posted on the temps and how the plants fair over winter.

[mnorell]

I spent a lot of time gathering all those heliconia...but I did it all this year. Sources from Hawai'i to California to Florida to Puerto Rico. One of the best sources is Montoso Gardens in Puerto Rico, some from Pacific Tropical Gardens in Hawai'i, Jungle Music in California, various vendors in Florida (most via eBay, where you can find MANY types!), and others just from spending time googling around the internet. The only problem is that LA is restrictive about importing Heliconias, Mississippi has no specific restrictions. But you can get phytosanitary certificates from many growers. Just check their websites to see if they can ship to Louisiana.

Also, Banting Nursery in Bridge City carries a couple of types (that's where I got my angusta 'Red Holiday' which is loaded with flowers right now, and I did cut a bunch of them today in case the others can't handle tonight's freeze in their very protected spot). Also Stokes in New Iberia. Every year iin spring and summer you can get lots of psittacorum types (and I also got my 'Guayana') from Clegg's on Siegen Lane at Airline in B.R.

Currently 33.0 here in Natchez at 11:40pm. I see it's also 33 in Fordoche right now as well. We're in for it.

[_Keith]

35 here in New Iberia.  I see they moved the projected low here to 31, but I bet 30 or lower.  Clear skies out with 0 wind.   Look out for a good killing frost.  Bye, bye bananas.  See ya next year.

[mnorell]

Keith--

Temps are falling faster than they've predicted, looks like. Lots of freezing temps already, I see on the north shore in several places (e.g., Mandeville) it's either at or slightly below freezing at 12:20am. Lafayette outlying areas as well. Ugh! You'r right, here go the bananas. There were already quite a few uppermost leaves ruined or damaged from the glancing frost we had, but this will probably really ruin the look of the whole place until early March. I've got frost cloth over my Musa coccinea and Heliconia lingulata but the rest are on their own. Hope you can keep the freezing weather either at bay or very brief. To put a good spin on it, at least it's a good hardiness test!

[southlatropical]

According to 'The Weather Channel' we hit 28F here. But my thermometer only read 30F at 6am. I suspect it was colder in other areas around the yard b/c this frost was more harsh than the last. The cat palm is slightly damaged here and there on some of the leaves, but does'nt look too bad so far. The leaves on my white BOP were damaged a little this time whereas last frost they were pretty much unscathed. I covered the rostrata with a garbage can but still recieved a little damage (leaves not stalks) and was looking bad already from the last frost. Banana leaves are melted more so than last time. I'm glad I did the Noah's ark thing with the rostrata and BOP. I have one of each in pots that were safe indoors. I also have some bromeliads that made it through last winter outdoors at my mothers house with only overhead protection. They look fine. I have noticed that through both frosts the area that has been frost-free so far both times actually gets hit a little from the north, but is bordered overhead on three sides by the eve of the house and carport. I think this time was worse b/c the cold hung around for much longer than last time.

[Kathryn]

Isaac - I got a variety of queen palm from Faith (budrot) that is more cold hardy and faster growing. Let me know if you are ever in the New Orleans area and I will give you one. You should definitely try Chamaedorea microspadix and radicalis as Michael mentioned.

I tried growing heliconas many years ago, but never had any success getting them to live past winter so I quit trying. I don’t remember which ones I tried, but none survived temperatures into the upper twenties. I’d be interested in how yours and Michael’s do this winter.

Not to rub it in, just FYI - my low was 42ºF Monday morning. I passed through Convent Monday afternoon and noticed some burnt bananas. I’m not sure what the low was in Baton Rouge, but I think Convent got into the upper twenties.

[southlatropical]

Kathryn,

What a generous offer. I don't get down to N.O. very often, but next time I do I'll look you up. I have been looking for the microspadix and radicalis, but cannot find it locally. I may order some over the web.

There is a guy in Lake Charles growing numerous heliconia. Most of them are in pots, but some are in the ground. The ones growing in the ground are usually covered with a portable green house in winter. But he has let H. Rostrata, H. Pedro Ortiz, and H. Schiedeana go through winter without the protection. Here is an excerpt from a thread where some of this was discussed.

"Pedro Ortiz, I find is extremely cold hardy. Right next to Schiedeana in my opinion. Maybe its the cross of Collinsiana and Bourgeana, I don't know. It took 24 with some leaf burn a few years ago before I had the large portable greenhouse and bloomed the following summer. At the time, it was planted right up against the south wall, next to my fireplace chimney and received good morning sun that wasn't blocked by the oak trees."

Here is a link to the entire thread.

http://bananas.org/showthread.php?t=2493

Here is a link to his photo gallery.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showgallery...&ppuser=175

The drawback is that even if Rostrata or Schiedeana survive the winter without the portable greenhouse, they bloom on second year growth and the existing stalks will certainly not survive the winter. It is important that they are planted in a fast draining soil if left unprotected otherwise they will rot.

New Orleans has a much more desirable climate than Fordoche. Have you tried growing any bird of paradise? There is some S. reginae growing outdoors about 5 miles from me. It is a large clump about 5' in diameter and it put out several blooms this year planted against the house and under the canopy of a live oak. I got this struggling midget S. reginae for $1 at my local nursery about a week ago. It will stay in a pot until I can divide it and put some in the ground.

If the H. rostrata makes it through winter I have enough to send you a growing division of it if you are interested. I also have Christmas palm seedlings available. Either of these could be sent through the mail for a trade in spring if I have'nt made it out to N.O. by then. I don't know what size the queens are that you have, but if they are small enough to be sent through the mail that is an option.

[Kathryn]

I don’t have any more Chamaedorea microspadix, but I may have a few radicalis. I have some family property in Plaucheville and will probably make a trip there in January. Depending on the timing, I might be able to stop by with a few palms.

The Butia x Syagrus should do well for you. This would be a very unusual palm for your area – you should plant as many as you can.

Phoenix roebelenii is a little cold sensitive for your area, but since they don’t grow too tall or wide, you could protect one without too much effort and it would be somewhat unusual for your area. Home Depot recently has some multiple roebelenii palms just beginning to trunk in 3-gallon pots for a decent price.

Home Depot also had some nice 7-gallon Dypsis decaryi (triangle) palms, which can’t take below about 28°F but will do well in pots for many years if you have a place to store them for a few days during cold spells.

I have numerous bromeliads and orchids in pots throughout my yard that I plan to bring into the garage if the temperatures are predicted to fall to the mid twenties. I actually decided to try a few heliconia (from Home Depot) in pots this past summer and bring them in if the temperatures were predicted to fall below freezing. Unfortunately, they didn’t make it through the summer due to lack of water. I guess the bromeliads and orchids can take a few weeks without rain, but not the heliconias. Maybe I will try a few of the ones you mentioned in the ground next spring.

I’ve had a nice orange Bird of Paradise in the ground for at least five years and it blooms well every year. The picture below is from 2005. I have a small white bird, but am hesitant to put it in the ground due to the eventual size it will achieve.

[Jeff Searle]

Kate,

 I did'nt realize you could grow those orange birds in your area. Their more cold hardier than I thought. Your's look beautifully grown.

Jeff

[_Keith]

(Jeff Searle @ Dec. 18 2007,20:52)

QUOTE

Kate,

 I did'nt realize you could grow those orange birds in your area. Their more cold hardier than I thought. Your's look beautifully grown.

Jeff

They grow well here in New Iberia, LA as well and Kate always has at least 3 degrees hedge on me, so they are even a little more cold hardy than that.  Mine have flowered for the last 2 years missing only their first year.  Mine look pretty ratty come March, but recover rapidly.